Rob Sturman & Otis: Compassion, Art, Activism

John Ramer  0:01  
I'm John Raymer from Kindness Ranch Animal Sanctuary in Wyoming,

Chelsey Marino  0:04  
and I'm Lori Cohen from the Beagle Alliance in Manitoba, Canada, and I'm Chelsea Moreno from Keeper and King in Charlotte, North Carolina, and this is Dogs Beyond the Lab.

Lori Cohen  0:17  
Hi, everyone, welcome to Dogs Beyond the lab. Hi everyone. Today's guest, of course, is Robert Sterman, incredible photographer, activist, and I think he just claimed his most important role, which is Otis's dad. So let's get chatting with Robert right off the top. Welcome, Robert. Thank you for being here.

John Ramer  0:44  
Hi, Robert. 

Robert Sturman  0:45  
Thank you for having me.

Lori Cohen  0:47  
Absolutely, so great to finally meet you, at least on screen. We've chatted for a long time, back and forth, so it's a pleasure. Robert, tell us about.. well, you're going to tell us about Otis, your relationship with Otis, but would you mind starting out kind of chatting about what prompted you to want to take in a dog from research, and how did that process go down for you?

Robert Sturman  1:12  
I grew up with beagles, and I remember my dad saying, you know, these dogs are used for animal testing. He would say that once in a while, and I never really got it, but that's where the seed was planted about animal testing. Think, when I was about 14, I started to become exposed to the cruelty of animals, all animals, vivisection, and that led me down the path of caring about animals, but it took years for me to really understand the depth of it, and I mean, fast forward quite a bit, but what led me to Otis is I was just following rescue organizations on Facebook, and then I saw him on Beagle Freedom Project, and just casually made a comment that he seemed like a great dog, and they got in touch with me the next day, and then Otis was sleeping in my bed a few days later,

Lori Cohen  2:18  
so that's kind of fascinating, because unlike most people who still don't know that animal testing is going on and that beagles are used, you have known for a very long time. Well, my guess is it shaped how you view compassion and then led you into photography, etc.

Robert Sturman  2:38  
Yeah, and with the animals, because I always embraced humanitarian themes with my work as an artist photographer, but I never could figure out how to work with dogs, animals, except for really promoting adopting rather than shopping, but I never really could find my place with being a part of helping animals, and then it wasn't until Otis that it really became clear how I could do something, and I just, when I got him, I was just, I felt very badly for him, and my dog had just passed away, so I was just fostering him, but that only lasted for about 12 minutes.

John Ramer  3:20  
I love that, I love that. So, how was it bringing him in? Did you see any trauma? Does he have any PTSD now? What were.. what were the struggles like, and the adjustments that you had to make?

Robert Sturman  3:36  
Well, first of all, he's a giant, so I'm not.. he's a 90 pound dog, so one of the adjustments is it's just like you're within like an actual equal constantly, like of course they're equals, but you can pick up a regular dog usually, but this is just someone that you just have to really be in relationship with and ask permission, and so it's been fascinating that way, and as far as trauma, unbelievably he is so well adjusted, but there are a few things that set him off that I have to deal with that are Chelsea is going to understand very well, fireworks do

Speaker 1  4:22  
oh yeah,

Robert Sturman  4:23  
train, I believe that the screeching, the vibration, and frequency of the train could remind him of something that happened in the laboratory, because that sets him off, and when he gets set up, he's gone for, you know, 1520 minutes, 30 minutes, so loud noises, Harley Davidsons, just ridiculous noises, I mean, and it sets them off, and there's nothing I can do,

Chelsey Marino  4:58  
or what do you do, I know there's nothing that you. Can do to help him get over it, but how do you comfort him when that happens?

Robert Sturman  5:07  
Well, we get away from it as far as possible, and I do use a formula called Hempwell, which calms him down a little bit, and so we just go for a drive a lot of the time, that helps a lot.

Lori Cohen  5:28  
Robert, what does gone mean? And the reason I ask that is, we know that they're flight risks. He's 90 pounds, I imagine he's not trying to crawl under a coffee table or a bed, it's when you know the way a beagle might or a smaller dog might run and hide, what does he zone out? Does he try to hide behind you? What does that look like for him?

Robert Sturman  5:51  
He reminds me of Scooby Doo. He takes on the Scooby persona.

Lori Cohen  6:00  
Okay, interesting.

John Ramer  6:02  
So, as a, as a photographer, my background personally is I worked with a lot of wolves in sanctuary and exotic animals, and I volunteered a lot for that, and I made money by photographing the animals that were in sanctuary and selling them in gift shops and online and whatnot, not anywhere nearly as accomplished as you, but it was a good way to make some extra money while I was doing this, and I found that when I would sit with the animals and watch and learn their behaviors and their personalities, it really centered me and allowed me to see a lot more of those natural behaviors that the animals have, and it felt like I had a connection with that. Do you find yourself sitting and almost meditating with Otis, and having a connection with him, and being centered while you're, while you're with him,

Robert Sturman  7:02  
100% I just find him to be so intelligent and tapped into the rhythms of nature, and I look at him as just this majestic being that's my teacher in that way, so he definitely is tapped in, there's a wisdom where you can just sit quietly on the beach and look at the waves for hours.

Chelsey Marino  7:26  
He's an old soul. It sounds like a little bit.

Robert Sturman  7:29  
Yes, that's a perfect description. Yeah,

Lori Cohen  7:32  
Robert, we seem to find, and Jen, you know, in general, the podcast centers around, of course, former research beagles, but really the relationship that people have with their dogs, and, and a lot of it is about what we learn from them while we're teaching them to be dogs, but what we really are learning from them. What could you sum up? Do you think what you've learned from Otis so far?

Robert Sturman  8:00  
Well, I aspire to be a lot more like him, because he's so much better at me at so many things. He's easy going, so flexible, doesn't really just go along with any plan, very relaxed, and his qualities are just tremendous, the loyalty, the selflessness, and the forgiveness is profound.

Chelsey Marino  8:31  
I think what's interesting, doing, you know, a little pre-show research on your work, some of your work is centered around seeing the not so glamorous parts of people or the environments that we tend to forget about, and seeing the good in those environments, and I kind of hear this parallel with Otis's life and how he grew up in a not so glamorous kind of forgotten world, and now you have, you know, became partners with him, and you're kind of showing other people through your activism about his life, just like you are showing people about, you know, life in prisons or something like that that you do too. It's eerily parallel, I see it very similarly. The work that you do, it's almost like Otis was put in your path because you do want this way to give back to animals, and now you have this dog who is living a similar dog version of some of the work you have already done, and you're just kind of exposing more and more people to both of those realities in human and dog world,

Robert Sturman  9:50  
it's, I mean, absolutely, and it's, it's very complicated, there are a lot of parallels that I am continuing to discover and. And just having the I brought him in with me to prison a couple of weeks ago, I was working on a project photographing yoga in the prisons, and I asked if I could bring my dog, and he said no problem, so it was very cool for them to see his tattoo and to learn about him, there was a familiarity and a deep connection and a respect.

John Ramer  10:33  
You know, I don't know if you'd know this, but both Laurie and I actually worked in corrections and we're very familiar with a lot of the human behaviors that happen in facilities like that, and me personally, I love the fact that you're able to go in and document the yoga, and it makes me even happier that you were able to take Otis in with you, that's amazing,

Robert Sturman  10:58  
and just the other day I went in and in the yoga class, this was the dream come true. I've been waiting 10 years for guys to show up in yoga with the dogs, and that happened just the other day, because I've gone in and photographed just the dog programs, but never the two together.

John Ramer  11:19  
Is this a line of activism that you're drawn to to get dogs involved in that to get them out of research. What, what role do you feel like you play in in raising awareness and increasing that human bond?

Robert Sturman  11:34  
My role in raising awareness is to first of all educate people that animal testing even exists because most people, and then being with Otis, he is a face like this is this is what they're testing on, and bring that to people's awareness, and it's a process of people starting to become exposed to the horrors that humanity is engaged in towards animals, and I feel like Otis is the gateway to that, and we can also educate people on making better choices to purchase cruelty-free products, and because when they can equate a face with it, I feel like it's much more effective, and Otis is a wonderful model for that. And the other thing that we're involved in, and we're going to go full force, is we want to shut down the breeding facilities, Marshall Bio Resources, where he was born, I would think with 26,000 dogs there at any given time that they're probably the largest breeding facility on planet Earth, and it's very rare for dogs to survive testing, as you know, and grateful that you guys are, I mean, you guys have a lot more information than me. I mean, you're the alliance. We really want to gather the troops, and like what happened with Richland. This is our, this is the one that we're very passionate about, and we're going to go full force at educating people on what's going on, and we're the momentum is tremendous right now.

John Ramer  13:25  
One of the things that fascinates me the most about that is as the public becomes more and more aware of the breeding facilities and animal testing, I'm fascinated by what draws somebody to certain aspects of it, some people are drawn to shut down the breeding facilities, some people are drawn to shut down the testing facilities, some people are drawn to actually try and change legislation or simply do more public outreach to inspire other people to get involved. Can I ask, what made your decision to focus on the breeding facilities?

Robert Sturman  14:08  
Well, when I was in England, I visited John at Camp Eagle and became quite educated about the situation that was going on, and just the fact that that's the place where it all starts. I just think that I can really identify with the evil that's going on, and as time goes on, like, I want to be involved in not just that, that's that's just something that I am passionate about, but I, I just feel like that's something that's a massive thing that can be done, and because he's from there, we'd like to assume that responsibility and do whatever we can. And but truthfully, you know, I often think to myself that I'm definitely not doing enough, because when you really, really start to feel empathy, like what happened with Ridgeland, where they just went in and said, you know, even though there's police, there's laws, this, but we really have to save these beings, so I feel like there's an evolution that needs to happen in me to do so much more, because if I was really, really in touch with the pain, the horrors that are existing, I would quit all my other jobs and just devote my life to helping animals.

Chelsey Marino  15:44  
Do you feel like a lot of your history in your work is seeing some of the most heartbreaking or difficult situations, and like photographing those, and do you feel like having Otis actually in your house makes your pull to this particular cause stronger, because you've seen a lot of shit in the world. Let's just be honest, right? And you know Otis is living in your house every day. Does that, I would assume, have some sort of effect of I want to put more time into this particular thing,

Robert Sturman  16:25  
100% and I just have to figure out how to marry my art to it in a more profound manner, so that it can be as effective as possible, because, like, when I see his block tattoo on his ear, it's so haunting. Even though he's been with me for four years, I don't believe I've even really started to scratch the surface on the depth of pain that this all represents. Like, there's different levels where I start to realize, wow, and that that's when it started to open up for me about Scott Marshall and what MBR is doing and what they're responsible for is all of a sudden I started to experience the anger, like after four years of what's happening, so it's I wish I could speed all this up, but it's a tremendous, it's so much, and the tattoo, and living with Otis, and seeing when he gets set off by loud noises in the train, it's.. it makes my heart bleed, as I'm sure it does to the three of you,

Lori Cohen  17:42  
Robert, I want to talk about your art for a minute again. How Chelsea mentioned the parallels, obviously yoga is a meditative process. Do you think that there's a piece of you, and also the way you described Otis, and what he's taught you about forgiveness, about peace, about moving forward, but do you find that in order to balance out sort of the anger and the darkness that you have seen, that that is what fuels your art in terms of that sort of chasing that piece and that meditative process to balance out, I guess, the light and the dark, so that I mean I have said before that if I think about, if I let myself think about all the animals that maybe we haven't gotten out of a laboratory, I would go into freeze mode and wouldn't be able to do anything, so I have to focus, as we say one beagle at a time, and think, okay, we've done this and that's what we can do. Are you chasing peace, Robert, in your art?

Robert Sturman  18:57  
I've never thought about it that way. I think it's more pointing towards possibility and our potential and showing what's possible and seeing the light in things, and a photograph is really an idea, and when people can feel that, it well, I try to choose wonderful ideas, like for instance yoga and meditation in the military, because inevitably they will experience deep trauma from what they do, so when I can present that idea to the culture and do it with powerful photographs that people can feel on a deep emotional level, and if they see that idea enough, that idea can become part of the normalcy of the culture, and so that's what I do with my work, my art. Right, and I haven't figured out how to do that effectively in the animal kingdom yet. Well,

Chelsey Marino  20:06  
it's a lot harder. It's a lot more secretive, you know. It's not as easy for, you know, a civilian to go into a lab like it is a civilian to go, you know, somewhere else in human worlds that that may be tragic, so I can see that being difficult.

Lori Cohen  20:27  
Robert, I'm going to read this, okay? Because I think this is really powerful, and it, it sums up sort of what you just said. This is Otis's page on your site. Otis is an animal testing survivor, and living with him has made this issue personal in a way it never could have been from a distance. His life points towards something larger than one dog story, the dignity of animals, the cost of what happens behind closed doors, and the responsibility to look more closely at the systems we accept without thinking, and that to me speaks to what you just said, in terms of things that people have just accepted or have accepted unconsciously by simply not knowing, and and therefore we accept that the products, for instance, that we buy, there's so many people out there that would never know that those products were tested on animals, etc. And so I just wanted to bring that to your attention, because I thought that was a really powerful description on Otis's page on your website.

Robert Sturman  21:37  
Thank you.

John Ramer  21:38  
I've always enjoyed your writing, Robert, since I met you and saw the write-up you did on the Beagles that that we transferred to Priceless Pets in Los Angeles, I was really impressed by that.

Robert Sturman  21:53  
Thank you. I was deeply inspired. That was a profound mission that you guys did, and coming into that, it was like it was almost timeless too. I went to this airport out in Chino, I think, where some place I'd never go to, and it was, it was fascinating. And then met all you guys and Beagles come in the cargo, it was, it was a tremendous I

Matt Cundill  22:28  
and now dogs beyond the lab continues,

John Ramer  22:32  
it's bittersweet when I got those beagles out of a research facility myself, and we were in the process of expecting a lot more, and the ones that were coming in were about ready to be transferred to the Beagle Alliance, i.e. Laurie, and I love the process of getting those dogs released to us, and then seeing them go on, but every time I see a dog get loaded onto a plane or into Lori's van. It always feels like a part of me is going with that dog. It's, it's very bittersweet,

Robert Sturman  23:09  
right?

John Ramer  23:10  
I want to circle back to one thing that you said. You said when you see an idea enough, it becomes part of the culture in regards to your photography and, and your art, and that hit home with me on a couple of different levels. One is I get to see these former research animals every day, just like you get to see Otis, a former research animal, every day, and it inspires me to keep going, and it, they, they become part of my idea of getting those dogs out of research, and my inspiration, but part of my job is to build relationships with the people that work in these research facilities and build relationships with the people that breed the dogs that are sold to these facilities, and it's difficult, because on a foundational level I don't necessarily agree with what they're doing, but in the world that they're in they have seen those ideas of selling these dogs of researching on these dogs to the point that it truly is part of their culture and they truly believe that what they're doing is necessary, so by raising awareness and potentially shutting down these breeding facilities, in your opinion, would be the next step for changing that culture

Robert Sturman  24:53  
to get behind all of the scientists that are testing products. Yes, and testing drugs through a cruelty-free manner. I mean, it's, it's, it's advancing rapidly. What they're doing, as I'm sure you guys know, but I think that the great unraveling, I mean, that's it's overwhelming, because really the bottom line is we are so programmed. It took me, I'm 56 It took me 50 years to completely become vegan. I became a vegetarian at 14, and to take that much time to unravel the brainwashing about how it's okay to exploit animals. It's such an abstract, distant, foreign thought to I would say 99% of the population, maybe more. So, I mean, that's the great challenge. It's the unraveling of how normal it is to exploit animals in every possible way.

John Ramer  26:09  
I, the main reason I asked, you were talking about the empathy that you're, you're truly feeling, and especially in, in your shared life with Otis now, and I feel like if you and I were sitting in the same room, we could go on this long six hour discussion on this, but for me personally, in my line of work, I have to find that human connection with these people that work in the industry that you and I disagree with, and I have to find the empathy to try and understand what drives them to do what they do, and to develop a relationship with them enough that they trust me to release the animals that are already in the system, you know, the if, if Marshall has 26,000 dogs at any given time on their New York property, there's 40,000 plus that are currently being researched on in the country, so somebody has to be there for those dogs, and that's what I feel my mission is. So I guess I would ask, if when you look at Otis, do you do you feel any empathy for the people that were taught that testing on him is the right thing to do, or is that where you struggle to find the human connection with that, and it's more anger.

Robert Sturman  27:33  
Well, as I said, I just started to let it in, and it surfaced as anger, and you're planting seeds because what you do is extraordinary. I've heard about there's there's a gentleman named Fios that's making a film called Born on Death Row, and Otis is going to be in that, and he talks to people that test on animals and has to find humanity with them in order to be able to understand them, do interviews with them, gain their trust. So I applaud you for doing what you do. That's that's high level work to be able to go into situations, and I have not been challenged with that yet, but just by you presenting it plants the seed and the opportunity. I mean, if I thought about it, I would say, "Oh yeah, they're programmed and they think this and that. And, of course,

Lori Cohen  28:33  
Robert, haven't you, though? And the reason I ask that is because every time, and I walked into prison, I walked into jail every, you know, every day for 10 years, and I had to look at people that I knew were convicted of murder and rape and sexual assault, and I had to remind myself daily that I was not their judge and jury, and, you know, that maybe I could plant seeds within them that might change their behavior, so and obviously that helps now, because I too am working with John. We share the same belief system, and it is my role to create relationships here in Canada, which is behind in terms of legislation and any sort of laws protecting these animals than the United States, but I think you're already there, because if you could walk into a prison and know that some of these people have committed crimes that you know are not something we want to think about, is that not the same thing a little bit?

Robert Sturman  29:39  
It is, but I don't, for the most part, I don't know what anybody did. I'm just my job is to focus on and shine a light on their sincerity to heal, and I. Imagine if I was close to, because I do look at the comments when I've shared the work, and there are people that that will not have compassion for them, because they had someone very close to them that was impacted, so I have not. I've thought about that, but for the most part, I - I'm just there. I'm fiercely trying to find someone's light, because I know that for me, when people did that for me, when I was younger, pointed towards something that was working for me. It gave me permission to be more of that, and they're paying attention to it and celebrating it, and just acknowledging it watered it, so that it could grow.

Lori Cohen  30:59  
That's an amazing answer, and I'll be honest with you, I really, in order to do the job that I do, that we do, John, I'm just going to say, I think you try to find the light in these people as well, and I, I do try to remind myself that, and I've had an opportunity to speak with a lot of people who have worked in laboratories and, and, and also some scientists who maybe started doing things differently after testing on animals and deciding that they couldn't do it any longer, but I try to remind myself that many of them started out wanting to help you in humanity, and if I can hold on to that, then I can hold on to a relationship that might change their minds on how they move forward, and hopefully that it's planting seeds, just as you said, Robert. It's a

Robert Sturman  31:56  
very interesting perspective, because I haven't been able to, I haven't allowed myself to go there with, like, at the gates of MBR, Marshall Bio Resources. It talks about it, brags about how wonderful they are, that they're advancing humanity, and I can, I can completely see how people would.. it's just I come from a different camp that I don't see myself as superior to animals, so advancing humanity at the cost of another life is very black and white for me.

Chelsey Marino  32:34  
I was gonna say the work I think that you do, or maybe the perception that I'm gathering from what I'm hearing is you really like to find people or stories and try to make other people see the light in these people like there is some good in this situation or there is some good in this murderer on death row so my question is obviously you're just letting some of this Otis stuff in, like you said. Do you think there is any part of you ever that would be able to forgive the people who were caring for Otis in whatever capacity caring for means in that facility, because you're kind of asking people to do that for other subjects. Do you think, and this is a loaded question, because I don't know if any of us could, could do something like this with your own personal dog, but is there part of you that would be able to maybe someday have a conversation and forgive them, see the light in that situation.

Robert Sturman  33:42  
I'm sure it's possible.

Chelsey Marino  33:43  
I'm sure it's hard to

Robert Sturman  33:46  
worse.

Lori Cohen  33:46  
It's hard. Yeah, yeah. Otis will teach you that. Yeah, it's a big thing these dogs do. It's a big thing they do. These dogs are truly the examples of of what we really want to be, we want to be forgiving, even if we can be, even if it's hard. I think we all want to be resilient, and we all want to be able to move on from our past, and we want, we are all blessed to get to see these dogs do that all the time, and I think there's just so much, just as you said, Robert, so much that that they're there to do such a

Chelsey Marino  34:24  
variety of things that we feel in, you know, in this world, and the dogs also feel this variety of things, so it's just this, you know, balancing of these all these different emotions and pushes and pulls of

Lori Cohen  34:36  
emotions,

Chelsey Marino  34:37  
what we can do to help change the dog and what the dog changes in us, you know, it's this whole dynamic when you get into the world of research animals,

Lori Cohen  34:46  
yeah, and to acknowledge that everyone has a different role, and that's okay, that they're all, we can all contribute to the good and the light and the change without all have. To do the same thing,

John Ramer  35:01  
I'm glad you said that, Lori, because the last 10 minutes of this conversation has done nothing but remind me of Chelsea's metaphor about links in a chain,

Chelsey Marino  35:14  
everybody has their little link and we all come in at separate points with this abstract same mission, but we can't all do it the same way, you know. I have nothing to do with dogs getting out of labs, that is not my role. There are obviously far better people at that than me, but my special role is when these dogs get out, I can help rehabilitate them, and I can help them move forward. And obviously, the three of you also have your own links in the chain, as do a bunch of other people, and you know, if we can all move forward towards the same goal, I think that's, you know, what we should be doing.

Lori Cohen  35:50  
Robert, do you have any questions for us, since we've put you on the spot for the last while in a big way, being so

John Ramer  36:03  
willing to confront the difficult questions. I mad respect and appreciation for you, my friend.

Robert Sturman  36:10  
You're taking it from three people, you thought there was only going to be one. I did, but I feel very honored, and I do have a tremendous amount of questions, and I always do when I'm on a podcast, I feel like all I'm doing is talking about my thoughts, so it's.. it's.. I want to know about all of you, Chelsea, tell me more about what you do with rehabilitating research dogs. Yeah,

Chelsey Marino  36:45  
so I spent 10 years in working at dog behavior. I have a dog training company. I'm here in North Carolina. We do a lot of behavior work, and through that, I got connected to a couple who had two dogs from In Vigo, who had been through several trainers, couldn't get, you know, where they wanted with these dogs, and were left kind of with the option of euthanizing or returning, and they didn't want to accept that. So I had a colleague who knew, you know, some of the work that I did, got connected with them, and that was my first experience learning about dogs and research, and I think at that point I started working with more and more, and it kind of clicked, of like, oh, this is what I am supposed to be doing. I have this skill set I've developed for the past decade, and I, you know, my dog is a hound, he's 10 years old, I've had him for 10 years, and I look at him, and you know I'm just partial to hounds, so the story pulled at me, and I thought I can help, and I didn't see a lot of behavioral help specifically for these dogs, so I kind of dove head first into that, got connected with Lori and John at some point, and we just started working together, and that's what I primarily do full time now, is I work with dogs, you know, I'll go out to Kindness Ranch and work with the dogs when they get there from the facility that Kindness Ranch got them from, and I'll spend about a week out there, and then, you know, Lori at the Beagle Alliance, I work with all of her fosters, and I spend a lot of my time every day right here on a coaching call with fosters and adopters of former research dogs and helping them figure out how to get their dog through a PTSD attack or how to come in from outside when the dog is terrified of them and they don't want to take food, so that type of stuff is my mission in life, and that's where I feel like I come in, is when this dog gets out, clock me in, because I can, I can help from there.

Robert Sturman  38:54  
I've known all of you, but I had no idea I was going to, you knew each other, or I was even going to be sitting here with you all today, and I feel

John Ramer  39:06  
welcome to the club.

Robert Sturman  39:07  
That's fascinating, the connection, and what you can do. And as you're speaking, I'm seeing more possibility of how I could be of service as an artist in this industry.

Chelsey Marino  39:19  
Good. Well, I like to say, dog, these dogs need everyone on their side that they can get, so anything that we can do, any special talents that anyone has to help help them is always wanted.

Lori Cohen  39:32  
Robert, I want you to come to Manitoba, Canada, and photograph our Beagle Yoga event. End of August, I'll keep you posted,

Robert Sturman  39:45  
but in what part of Canada?

Lori Cohen  39:46  
Dead center, about three hours due north of Fargo, North Dakota. We actually, we actually get summer, so I won't saddle you with 40 below, so it'll I. You'll be okay anyway. Beagle yoga, I'll keep you posted. Well, I

Robert Sturman  40:05  
just feel grateful to be connected with all of you, and John, I remember you. You, I followed you on the plane to photograph while you were carrying in crates, carrying out crates, is that correct?

John Ramer  40:18  
You did. Yes. Yep. And I I love those, those journeys. Tell me one thing that caught you off guard, or, or really impacted you that you weren't expecting when you adopted Otis that you would like to share with other people looking to bring in a former research animal,

Robert Sturman  40:47  
I think,

John Ramer  40:47  
and would you recommend

Robert Sturman  40:51  
it? Yeah, of course, I'd recommend it, because I think ultimately people want to open up their hearts and be of service and help help others that don't have a voice, so I think that if you feel the pull, which I know you do, then you should do it, because it's part of our evolution to learn how to care more deeply, and they can teach us that, and and really open our hearts to help them to have a better existence experience on this planet that belongs to them just as much as it belongs to human beings, so adopt and then

John Ramer  41:41  
indeed

Robert Sturman  41:45  
there's how to work, adopt John will bring them, no, Lori will, will take them in, John will bring, I don't know how to work, but

John Ramer  42:01  
we can all figure it out. Robert, go ahead and throw out all of your socials and any projects that you're working on right now that you want people to follow,

Lori Cohen  42:11  
please.

Robert Sturman  42:11  
My socials, well, Otis is social. Yes, Otis the Handsome Hound on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok,

Lori Cohen  42:25  
that says it all,

John Ramer  42:27  
right? On,

Robert Sturman  42:28  
so you could find me at Robert Sterman, but I'm more concerned about promoting him. I promoted my work for many years, and it's fun to just be his ghost writer, and his photographer, and his social media manager.

Lori Cohen  42:48  
I love it. I love it. Well,

John Ramer  42:50  
I want people to definitely follow your work. Thank you for being so humble and taking second seat to Otis. There, but your work is very powerful, and for anybody listening, definitely go and find Robert, and follow all of his photography. And I'd like to think that today's episode is is proof that you don't have to have a former research beagle in your home right now. You don't have to even be considering one. The life lessons that these dogs teach us are universal and can be shared amongst everybody you know, and you can definitely find all of our socials for the Beagle Alliance and Keeper and Ken on Be on the Lab dot dog. Be sure to give us a five star rating on all of your favorite podcast sites, and then feel free to even leave a negative comment if you want, as long as it's preceded by a five star rating, that's what helps us. And thank you very much for joining us.