Beyond The Debate: Helping The Dogs In Front Of Us

John Ramer  0:00  
I'm John Raymer from Kindness Ranch Animal Sanctuary in Wyoming,

Chelsey Marino  0:04  
and I'm Lori Cohen from the Beagle Alliance in Manitoba, Canada, and I'm Chelsea Moreno from Keeper and Kin in Charlotte, North Carolina, and this is Dogs Beyond the Lab.

John Ramer  0:18  
Hi, ladies, how are you today?

Chelsey Marino  0:20  
Hello, great. Hi, guys, how are you? Great. Long time no see, John.

John Ramer  0:25  
It's been a little while, like a day or so.

Chelsey Marino  0:27  
It might get 24 something, maybe 36 hours since I was there.

John Ramer  0:32  
We're here today to just kind of share with our listeners who we are and what we do, and what makes us different yet similar, so with that being said, a quick little background on me with Kindness Ranch is I am celebrating my seventh year as executive director at Kindness Ranch, and have helped guide the sanctuary to a very neutral standpoint in how we work with research facilities and our supporters, and through that work I've been in touch with a lot of other amazing communities, which is what put me in touch with both of you. So, with that being said, Lori, do you want to kind of explain how we came to work together and help each other out a little bit.

Lori Cohen  1:25  
Yes, and congrats on seven years, that's amazing. Lots of animals saved in amazing homes, of course, which we are honored to be a part of. So, how did we get together? How, you know, how we met John is you graciously accepted an invitation to be on one of our very first town halls. When we first started out, we decided, as the Beagle Alliance, that we were going to try to bring a community together. Decided we would have these virtual town halls, and I guess the 4000 Beagles from In Vigo were just released, and we were discussing that, and what that looked like, and I think I jokingly said to you on that town hall, well, I wasn't joking, but I didn't think you'd ever take me up on it. Is I said, well, hey John, give us a call if ever you need any help, and you know, I sort of had that as a pipe dream, and then you called, I think it was two weeks later, and said I could use your help.

John Ramer  2:26  
To be fair, you called me first.

Lori Cohen  2:30  
Did I call you and beg you for dogs, or what happened there?

John Ramer  2:33  
No, no, not at all. There was a lot of confusion with the dogs that were coming out of In Vigo, and I had done an interview in a Wyoming news organization called Cowboy State Daily, where I said, and I still stand by this, that if the only reason you wanted to adopt one of these beagles was to cash in on the hype and prop it up solely to further your own agenda and not to just give the dog a good forever home that I would turn you down for adoption, and that accidentally went super, super viral, and you called and left a voicemail saying that we support you in Canada. If you would need any help, we're here. And I played that voicemail for my wife, and she was like, oh my god, I love this woman. And then when you asked us to do the town hall, I didn't hesitate.

Lori Cohen  3:37  
Yeah, I remember now. I remember, because I remember leaving a message, and I just remember the time of year I was sitting outside, and I'm like, I'm gonna call John Raymer and leave a message and just say that, you know, we're on board, and yeah, we're here for you and support you. And then years later, or guess a year later, when we finally met in person, Katie said to me we were so glad that you left that message, so you're right, there you go, and here we are.

Chelsey Marino  4:07  
I could just see Lori reading that article, I just feel like, man, I connect with that, I'm gonna tell this person,

Lori Cohen  4:16  
I'm gonna call this guy.

Chelsey Marino  4:17  
Yeah, you know what, that sounds just like me.

John Ramer  4:20  
I was so concerned when all of that was going on, because that was my first experience with absolute internet outrage, and I, I was so caught off guard. My phone started ringing at like 4o'clock that morning, with people telling me, Have you seen Facebook? Have you seen what's going around, and I was like, what, what, what, and there was, there was so much. People were leaving death threats on my Instagram, they were leaving death threats on all of my Facebook posts. I mean, I, I remember the one that hit home the worst was I had. Post in memoriam to my mom, who had passed away years earlier, and it was just a memory that I shared, and somebody left a death threat to me on that post, and I was just livid.

Lori Cohen  5:14  
Wow,

John Ramer  5:14  
I was absolutely livid, and David Grubman, the founder of Kindness Ranch, he called me and he said, just so you know, John, no degree of success can be attained without an equal degree of criticism. So you need to just remember that you made it, you're doing good, and we support you, and I was just like, oh

Chelsey Marino  5:44  
yeah, really

John Ramer  5:45  
such a load off, yeah,

Lori Cohen  5:47  
yeah,

John Ramer  5:47  
yeah.

Lori Cohen  5:47  
And hey, has things changed today?

John Ramer  5:53  
What's changed today is we got all 4000 dogs out of In Vigo, and did it in 58 days, so we did good. We did good. Yeah, I say we like Kindness Ranch was the only one. There was so many people involved with that, but it's definitely a testament to what can be done when people choose to work together instead of against each other.

Lori Cohen  6:15  
Agree, which is why we're here, and which is why we've all chosen to work with each other, obviously. So, let's like Chelsea, you chime in on this in terms of because obviously there's so many dogs in need, especially right now, and so many people who are well-intentioned when they're training their dog and dealing with dog issues, and you know it would be a never-ending stream of dogs that you could help and hope to help, but Kindness Ranch and the Beagle Alliance are lucky enough to be working with you. So, what does that look like?

Chelsey Marino  6:58  
Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting when you guys were going through all this in Vigo stuff. I was one of those people who kind of say this all the time, that I was one of those people who either didn't know or chose not to think about dogs and animal testing. I've been working in dog behavior for 10 years, and I got connected to April, who you guys both know, is kind of our middle man here. Maybe we'll talk to her one day. She's the one who really brought us together. But April reached out to me as a colleague working at a different rescue and asked if I could help these research beagles, this family with these research beagles who had just gotten their dogs out of Indigo, so I worked with them, and that was really my first experience in this world, and I just dove deep into it, and it pulled me in, and I started working with more research dogs. I helped that family, and April, here's another, you know, and they kind of word just started getting around, and I don't remember if I got connected to John or to Laurie first, but somehow I had a conversation, I know, like Lori, I talked to you on the phone, it was like one phone call, and we just like really connected, and you're like, come to a town hall, and you know, the I talked to John. John had gotten some dogs out of the West Bank, and I think that was my, my interview process of going out to Kindness Ranch and helping with the West Bank dogs. And I am blessed that he allowed me to go out and work with the dogs, and I still go out there several times a year and work with the Beagles out there, but I just, you know, meeting both of you and giving me the opportunity as some person, dog trainer, dog behavior person that you guys don't even know, and just like started to build a foundation off of that, and just build our relationship, and you know, I like to tell people, let me prove myself to you, don't blindly trust me. So hopefully that's what we did.

John Ramer  9:07  
I have a confession to make.

Chelsey Marino  9:08  
Okay, you tell me.

Lori Cohen  9:09  
I'm excited, excited.

John Ramer  9:13  
April and I talked back and forth for like two weeks, and I went through your, your website with a fine tooth comb, and I questioned absolutely everything with April. I was like, "Who, who the hell is this person? Why are you trying to set me up with? And it, she explained to me that your website was set up as a commercial dog training business.

Lori Cohen  9:36  
Yeah,

John Ramer  9:36  
and I was like, "And she thinks she can work with former research beagles, and who, who the hell is this person? And April was the one that told me about Lori. She goes, John, Lori's cool, you can trust her, you can work with her, and and then she said the same thing about you, she's like just. Just let her come out there and tell her what the sanctuary needs, and she'll do just fine. John, she's cool, you can work with her. And April doesn't say that about just anybody. So I was like, all right, fine. And then when I talked with you guys, and you jumped at the chance to come out, I was like, well, we'll see how this goes, and here we are, a few years later.

Chelsey Marino  10:23  
It's so funny, April. You know, I had worked with dog trainers before, and I think one conversation I had with her, after working, you know, with her for a while, about I kind of explained to her, like, April, there's a big difference of, like, obedience training your dog and behaviorally training your dog, and kind of explained that a little bit to her, and she was like, whoa, like it just opened this like brand new world to her, and I think that helped her a little bit, but we're appreciative of her, and I'm appreciative of you guys, because this is become my life's work now, and it's fantastic, and I just love it. I love you guys, I love you guys,

John Ramer  10:58  
love you. Well, and you have to remember and remind the people that are tuning in that our collaboration and our work together isn't under necessarily your commercial dog training business, you give a little bit of background on Keeper and Ken

Chelsey Marino  11:20  
here in North Carolina, our company is called Command Canine, and that name I created in 2016 When I started this company, I thought it was what the name of what I would do for the rest of my life, and it's, it's an obedience name, but gradually throughout the years we gravitated away from obedience, but we were too developed enough to change the name, so you know, as I started working with the Beagles more heavily, and I really wanted to devote my time to that, because our business here is fantastic. We have a fantastic staff, and it runs itself to a point. So we branched off completely and started a new business called Keeper and Kin, and Keeper and Kin is exclusively working with dogs who were bred for or used in laboratory testing, and so that's what we do. I barely use obedience training on these beagles, by far not ready for that. By the time I see them, it's primarily behavioral training and preconditioning is what I call it, but preconditioning I explain of getting your brain prepared to learn, so the things that we don't think about behavior training, like problem-solving skills, and building tolerance for frustration, building a willingness to try something, independent skills like those type of things are what we do at Keeper and Can. And then going into more behavior training, and then obedience training in the long run, but completely different than Communication. Two different skill sets, but that's that's where we are.

Lori Cohen  12:56  
I want to say that I did. I have worked the Beagle Alliance has worked with other behavioral trainers over time that I had met in my years of working in the United States, and let's just clarify, I am Canadian, I live in Canada, but I did work in the United States, so I need to somewhat throw in the proud Canadian thing there for a minute. Why not? But so I mean, I just want to throw this out in the world of why we're working together, because I think it's important. There's a lot of great people out there doing a lot of great things, but we all choose, you know, we choose who we kind of, I guess, like-mindedness, and choose who we want to work with on a regular basis, but I had worked with other behavioral trainers, but, and they only got the dogs so far, and they did great, and there was, there was definitely improvements, but they only got them so far, and I think Chelsea, that's what was something so great, I knew that they were only getting them so far. I had been experienced enough to know, and that, and then, of course, it just took time, and there were always sort of setbacks, which we still see. We know these dogs are in the pro, you know, the process is taking a few steps forward, a few back, but you know, Chelsea, you almost just really work with people and take them over the hump, and then you really start to see the progress go, and that's why, of course, now we have our relationship as organizations, and we see the dogs just do phenomenally over time, phenomenally, that didn't come out right, and John, I think you and I, I mean, from the get-go, from that phone call, now that you're reminding me, which, that was pretty monumental, I kind of can't believe I skipped over that, but you and I are a little bit in the minority because we have chosen, and I think this is why part of why we work so. Well, together, is that our philosophies are the same, that we take a non-adversarial approach, that we want to work together, that we're all about collaboration, and that we both pretty much, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but we both pretty much believe that in the long term, the best for the animals is going to come from working together and finding common ground, and that's kind of where we sit today, I think

John Ramer  15:21  
you know my favorite part about that is that when, when we put the animals needs first, you and I both acknowledge that we're not going to make everybody happy in doing that,

Lori Cohen  15:35  
and we sure don't, John.

John Ramer  15:37  
No, we do not

Chelsey Marino  15:40  
explain what you mean to to the people listening who don't understand what you mean by both sides, that you don't make both sides happy, or you can't make, you know, them happy. What does that mean? Who are both sides?

Lori Cohen  15:52  
Well, John, you're going to articulate it. You're going to articulate it great, but for me, if in from the way I would say it is that we walk a very thin line, and, and you have to acknowledge that when you're doing work in a way that is an advocacy work, that you're, you're not going to please everyone with what you're saying, and how you're doing things, and so I think that I think that in the, in the world of getting dogs out of laboratories, getting animals out of laboratories, there's sort of two, there's two truths I think you have to hold that if you go in guns a blazing, you may end up with the fanfare that we've seen recently, and sure, the mass spreading of awareness, there's been some great spreading of awareness that dogs are in testing and being used, etc. And so you have to hold the acknowledgement that that exists, and there's, and that there is going to be some positive outcomes from that in the short term, but you also have to hold the other truth that because this is such a secretive world, many of the facilities that obviously don't want to be called out for animal testing because of the negative connotation are going to then not reach out to anybody and release dogs, and that is a problem for the long term change that we want to see, and I hope that makes sense, but you almost have to hold those two truths, and I think John, you and I are in it for the long haul, we want to see long term change, and that, and at the same time we need to still be able to acknowledge that there's animals and dogs in research facilities now that we want to see come out of there, and then work at the same time for the long term change. Does that make sense?

John Ramer  18:02  
Yeah, yeah, it does. And I'm going to piggyback off of that a little bit in saying that animal lovers are very empathetic people. I think we can all agree on that. And you know, one of one of the first things I learned when I started working in sanctuary was the word anthropomorphism, and in projecting human emotions onto the animals that we work with, which I see done a lot in animal advocacy. What I don't see being done so much is using that empathy to find the human connection with the people that are housing the animals that you want. It's so easy to demonize those people, and fall into the trap of groupthink and publicly shaming them that you're building walls instead of bridges. One of my favorite stories that I can tell goes back to even before In Vigo, when I was still trying to find my footing as director of Kindness Ranch, and I was, I was called to ask to help receive over 140 dogs from a testing facility in Texas, and somehow I was able to communicate with these people well enough that they weren't going to give me all of the dogs, they gave me three days to get 144 dogs out of this facility, and while I was down there loading all of these dogs into a trailer with a number of volunteers that came to help. The the animal care manager of this testing facility that was literally days away from euthanizing all of these dogs was standing in this loading bay crying, and I jokingly said, "Are you crying because you're happy that all of these dogs are getting out of here? And he said, "No, I had to put my dog down over my lunch break, and the part that stuck with me on that was here was a guy having a very human moment who just had to say goodbye to his personal dog, and that that separation from his personal dog with all of these dogs that were about ready to become somebody else's personal dogs put so much in perspective for me on this is a guy that he is human. How do I connect with that human side and build those relationships enough with all the other people working in animal testing to where we can have that connection and they know to call and that's that's something that I think a lot of the more militant active animal activists tend to forget and I also think it's something that the people that work in animal testing tend to forget for all of these animal lovers out here. So, what I like about working with the two of you is that Chelsea, you have those human connections with people that, if they're struggling with helping their dog adjust, you're not telling them that they're a bad dog mom, or, or you know, you're you're training the human to respond to the animal's behavior and help them, and Lori, I've seen you handle people that can be difficult, and you do it in a very human, empathetic way, and if, if we couldn't be that, we wouldn't be successful.

Chelsey Marino  22:08  
Absolutely,

Lori Cohen  22:09  
I agree. I agree, and we wouldn't be in, in our, in our integrity, I think, which is the important thing. I think that if you, you know, animal people are very, they have so much empathy, and it obviously, like, it hurts all of us to see an animal hurt. I think it hurts us all to see a human hurt as well. And people are just not that black and white. People are complex, and they compartmentalize, and I too have had experience discussing with a former animal care worker how he worked in a laboratory for years, had to do his job because he was a veteran, nobody else would give him a job, he was going to be on the street, he took this job in a laboratory. I remember having this interview, this full conversation with him, and he took the job in the laboratory, simply because cleaning up cages was the only job he could get, or else be on the street, literally, and he admitted that the same as being in the military that he had to compartmentalize what he was doing, but that he loved the animals, and that on his break he would sneak and go visit all the dogs, and was got permission to bring them toys, and got permission to take them outside, and at least got some sort of permissions because he wanted to do right by the animals, and it really struck me how complex that that humans are, that there were all not one thing or another thing, and I just see the word compassion thrown around so much in the animal rights world, and I'm just going to say it. You don't get to call yourself compassionate and only have that compassion for one species or one group. If you're compassionate, you need to be compassionate. Period. Towards all living things

John Ramer  24:25  
across the board, for sure.

Chelsey Marino  24:27  
Yeah,

Lori Cohen  24:27  
yeah.

Chelsey Marino  24:28  
What's interesting is I went to go see Melanie Kaplan speak. Melanie Kaplan just published a book called Lab Dog. If you haven't read it, go read it. There's my plug for Melanie. It's fantastic. Absolutely, I went to go see her speak, and she was speaking at a university, and I know now it was the first time this had happened to her on her press tour, but in the audience with us were people who were working in the labs, they. Really, truly, believe that the work that they are doing, the things that they are studying, will help humankind, and it's almost this fine line, I wonder, of are we doing the right thing, or are we not doing the right thing? Should we try to help humanity or not? The dogs, and I mean, that's just this big gray area in this whole conversation, in this whole world. These people aren't evil people that I think they're made out to be a lot of the time. They are humans, and they are trying to do the right thing for the world, or maybe they're kind of stuck in that position, like Lori said, and they just, you know, don't exactly know what to do. But it's, it's complicated, and it's not black and white, and,

Lori Cohen  25:42  
and it's belief systems, and it's belief systems, and what I try to say all the time is that no good has ever come from the world going to war over belief systems and fighting over belief systems. There's going to be, you know, issues, and most people are entrenched in their beliefs, and if you shame them, they're either going to dig their heels in, but if you find common ground, and you guys know that I'm a big person, like our whole organization focuses on the fact that we believe that our collective love for dogs will make a difference for all the animals in research, because no, no animal on the planet touches the hearts of our culture and our countries as a dog does, and so I think that if you find common ground with people, they're more apt to listen than I mean, you guys know I worked as a correctional officer for 10 years, I was not the judge and jury of those inmates, and if I were to treat them as less than, would they ever be open to any alternatives that I had to say about how maybe they should do things differently or think differently? Those doors get closed very quickly when somebody feels judged and shamed, and we, we know we're not the judge and jury. So, I mean, John, I don't know if you want to add to it. I would certainly say that I would, I would, I would love to hear also what you have to say to add to this, John, because you're usually very articulate in this, but then I would love to lighten it up and talk about our podcast and how we're going to talk to people who have adopted dogs and have the best time.

John Ramer  27:32  
I would just like to say that Lori, you, you truly do embody Canada nice. So,

Lori Cohen  27:40  
have I apologized enough? Though I'm supposed, maybe I haven't apologized enough for the, for the average Canadian. I don't know. I'm sorry about that. If I have not apologized enough. Thank you, John.

John Ramer  27:53  
You mentioned people being entrenched in their belief system, and that, that reminds me strangely of my dad. For the people that don't know, I worked in wolf sanctuaries for a very, very long time, and I remember talking with my dad about this a number of years back, and he asked me why I liked wolves, so I gave him the kind of canned response, and he said, "You know, I've never had an interaction with a wolf. I've never seen one, not even in a zoo. I just know that I hate them, and I don't want to share the planet with them. And I was like, "Well, Dad, you're entitled to your opinion, and I knew it's my dad. I'm not going to change his mind on it, and I'm not going to change his heart by spewing off all of the facts that I know about wolves and how they help the environment. I know that there's absolutely nothing I can do to change his mind. When I went back to work at the sanctuary that I was at at the time, I was talking with the founder of the sanctuary, and he reminded me that you're not going to change anybody's hearts and minds with facts, they have to have an emotional response to it, and that maybe we have enough veterinarians, what we need are better PR companies, and I was that, that kind of stuck with me, and that was that was kind of my motivation to working with high school students and and young college people that are still looking for information and are not jaded enough by politics and the world at large to be able to be emotionally swayed, so when they come out here and they see a beagle or they get to spend an afternoon. On playing with our pigs or petting our cows, they're they're going to remember that the next time that they vote, and when it comes to voting on new laws and policies and whatnot, I was just down in the Deep South talking to the owner of a breeding facility down there, we went out and we had had lunch, and this guy has been breeding beagles for research for over 30 years. He at one time had over 800 of them on his property, and he told me that he could see that the tides are turning and people are moving away from testing on dogs, and he said that if, if the public wants us to stop doing it, they need to come together and vote, and as soon as they vote and they change the laws, I will lock the doors on this place forever, and I'll never look back, but until then, what I do is legal. A lot of companies, organizations, and governments consider it to be mandatory, and he people believed in what he was doing, but he, he also said that if the public didn't want him to do it anymore, all they had to do was come together and vote, and he'd walk away from it forever.

Chelsey Marino  31:26  
Well, Poppy's voting right now. Poppy's like, "Stay off my lawn. Poppy's voting right now,

Matt Cundill  31:41  
and now dogs beyond the lab continues.

Chelsey Marino  31:45  
I think it's so interesting, and something that we have talked about before together, not on this podcast, is, you know, this this chain of events of getting these dogs out of these facilities, and at the beginning of the chain are lots of different types of people. There are people like John from Kindness Ranch, who are working to build relationships with labs, so they feel comfortable giving him dogs. He is working in law. There are different other organizations trying to change laws. There are people who are the advocates, and they are out there trying to get dogs out of labs via other ways, and then there are people who the everyday person who is choosing, like, not to buy products that were tested on animals, or they are sharing different facts on, you know, social media about these things, and, you know, going down the chain, there are several other different people doing different things for this whole process, and in something that I feel so strongly about is I number one stay in my lane. I don't know anything about getting dogs out of labs, that is not my role. There are more intelligent, capable people doing that, and my role is to when the dog is out, that's where I step in, and we start working with that person and that dog to make their lives better, but I think everybody has a role, right? Like, if you feel strongly about this cause, there are things you can do, and anything we can do to support the dogs is good, and we're just kind of here saying our piece, Lori's and John's individual stance on this, there are people who are going to disagree, there are people who are going to totally agree with it, but it's important to know that it's not just one thing that's going to make this turn, it is the short term and it is the long term, like Ridgeland, for example, these dogs got out of Ridgeland because they were able to be negotiated out and purchased, and they did get out, they did get released, however, also that was possible because of changes in law, like the Ridgeland had to stop breeding dogs because of laws, and you know, maybe these dogs wouldn't have gotten out, they wouldn't have accepted payment for the dogs if that law wasn't in place, so there's all these different angles coming at it, and like we all have a role, we all want dogs out of labs, we all love beagles, and we want them in our homes, and there's, you know, I think in here there's no good guy, bad guy. It's just this is what this is. Where we're at, this is what we all need to do, exactly. We all have our lane, we all have our role, and we, you know, I feel like we, as the general human being public, kind of all want the same thing. We want to support people, we want to keep people healthy, safe. We want to keep dogs healthy, safe, and at the end of the day, that's kind of how I see it, anyway.

Lori Cohen  34:48  
Agreed,

Chelsey Marino  34:49  
in my non-expert opinion of this,

Lori Cohen  34:51  
which is why we're here to see the good stories, the stories, the success, for lack of a better word, success stories of the dogs. I mean, I think that the world needs more good news stories, and I like to believe that our podcast is going to be good news stories.

Chelsey Marino  35:10  
Absolutely,

John Ramer  35:11  
you know, for the less than 1% of animals that will make it out of research facilities, that's still hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of success stories annually, and examples of reasons for us to be grateful and celebrate those victories. If I focused on all of the dogs that we didn't get out, I would be so defeated, I would lose all motivation to continue this line of work.

Lori Cohen  35:40  
I agree, that's said perfectly, John. And I say that I have said that so many times as well, that if I didn't just keep moving and being grateful for one beagle at a time, that we say you would freeze, you would go into freeze mode, and you would be ineffective. So you must always be grateful and celebrate the small victories alongside of the large victories, and all of those, you know, first steps add up to hundreds of 1000s of first steps out of research, and we're we are three individuals who are blessed enough to see that on a daily basis, and how lucky are we.

Chelsey Marino  36:24  
Yeah, what's cool about our podcast is we can look at dogs in research as a whole, and we can look at them as the symbol of this great work that's been done. But listening to our podcast, you're going to get to know the individual dog, you're going to learn about their individual personality in that person, when that person was like, I want this dog, and the process they went to go get the dog, and their first times with the dog, and you know, you get to really hear about the individual emotional journey, and that makes it more real, I think, and it's cool,

John Ramer  36:58  
it'll definitely create the connection, yeah,

Lori Cohen  37:00  
yeah, yeah, and what's so great is that you know, time and time again, we've all heard that the dog ends up changing the person more than the other way around, and that they learn so much from the dog, and I think that's going to be really special about our podcast, and people will connect even if you don't have a former research dog or don't intend on adopting a former research dog. This podcast will be relatable to anyone who has a dog, who has ever had a dog and known the love of a dog, and how that changes you, and, and so really I think that sharing that with people is going to be pretty cool to hear responses

John Ramer  37:46  
and to shine that light on a part of the scientific community and something that has been held so secretive that a lot of these people had no idea that these dogs could adjust to go into homes.

Lori Cohen  38:09  
Absolutely,

John Ramer  38:10  
it's, it's such a victory to be able to simply be able to say they're they might not be your normal, normal shelter dog, or coming from a reputable breeder that a friend of a friend of a friend knows, or something like that, they do take a little bit of special handling, but my goodness, once they are comfortable, once they trust you and know that they're they're free from the manipulation that happens behind those closed doors, there is, there is no more happy and loyal dog that I have ever experienced in my entire life.

Chelsey Marino  38:50  
I agree, they're amazing.

Lori Cohen  38:53  
Yeah, and they are different, and they are different, I mean, so much so that Chelsea started a whole new business because they were different. It was a whole separate thing to work with.

Chelsey Marino  39:03  
Yeah, I mean, I like, I said, I was doing dog behavior for 10 years, and when I first started working with these dogs, I had to, I had to learn them. I mean, they're not only is their brain, you know, I say all the time, their brains are different because of what they have been through, like literally their brains are wired differently, like a person who has gone through a traumatic experience or a life of chronic stress, it rewires you, so, so that's very different, but I mean, yeah, I had to learn the nuances about them, and a little bit of background about what they had potentially been through, and that's why, again, I did start this business because I want to help people as much as possible, and use this gift that I was given, and my experience, I think, all came together to be able to provide support for people going through this, because I love those little dogs, and I want people to be able to keep them in their homes and love them forever and. Yes, I think we're trying to do that as best as possible. Lori, you on the other hand are also very good at supporting the people part of this. That's something that Lori's fantastic at, from the very beginning. If you don't know, the Beagle Alliance, where is a foster-based organization, and Lori is a little bit of a matchmaker, a lot of it, of a matchmaker with her fosters, and her fosters have this incredible trust with her because they get their dogs sight unseen, and Lori learns what she knows about the dogs, and she, you know, learns what she knows about those fosters, and she match makes them together, and then she's there to support them through that entire process.

Lori Cohen  40:40  
Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. But you know what it is, is that these dogs are different. We know they're different, so even when.. and I thank you for saying that, but I know, obviously, you know it's a collective effort, clearly. But the thing is, is that these dogs aren't like any other quote unquote rescues because they other dogs who have made it to a shelter or who have even been on the street have experienced some sort of freedom or some sort of choice and these dogs have never experienced that and I think that even the people who apply to foster and hopefully end up adopting a former research beagle, you know, usually have experience with a quote unquote again rescue, and I say quote unquote rescue because you know rescue can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, as we've seen, but I think that they think that everything they've done before is going to work for this dog, and it really doesn't, because they are so unique and different, and they've never experienced choice, and it's important for people to not feel like they're failing, and I see we hear that all the time, where people are so worried that they're going to, you know, make the dog worse, or they're going to do something that the dog's just going to revert. And I think, you know, Chelsea, you see this a lot too when you're chatting with people, and I think it's equally as important to support the people who are caring for these dogs as the dogs themselves, because they are now in a relationship, and the progress of the dog is determined by the commitment, not just the love, the commitment of the person, because love doesn't save these dogs, love is the impetus to which they want to help, but they need more than love.

John Ramer  42:44  
Well said.

Chelsey Marino  42:44  
I was talking to one of your former fosters, now adopters, the other day, who has a dog who was originally from kindness and very, very shut down, and I told Lori I only really kind of feel comfortable with you taking this dog away if you have a foster who is very patient and understanding with her, and I was talking to her yesterday, she's going to, we're going to work together more, but she told me that the first two weeks with this dog as a foster, the dog would just sit in her little room, and the only thing that this woman did is she would go and sit next to her, she wouldn't touch her, wouldn't talk to her, wouldn't do anything, and she just sat there, and she just read her book out loud, and just sat next to her for two weeks, and read her book out loud, and then that third week she got a little closer, soft, the dog needed a little bit of, you know, affection, and the dog is now opened up, and she's doing fantastic, and we're going to continue to build that, but that's what we mean about, like, this is different, and, like, you have to be understanding and supportive the whole time, because I'm sure that's tedious, like, you want to help this dog, you want to love this dog, and let her open up, but she really took her time and did something amazing by just not rushing, and I know that it moves everything for that dog, because she's fantastic. Now, one

John Ramer  44:10  
of the things we run into so much out here when we try and hire new dog caretakers, and for those that don't know, at Kindness Ranch, if you're hired as a dog caretaker, you actually live with the dogs that you care for. Sometimes it can be as many as 16 dogs at once in your living room, and it's constant that I get people that apply for the job and they say, well, under previous experience, I've had dogs my entire life, and or I worked at a vet's office, or I worked at a boarding kennel, and it's, it's almost to the point that I look for people that have zero experience. And almost didn't even have dogs growing up because they don't have to unlearn all they do with normal dogs that I'm doing air quotes there, but yeah, it's it's difficult to have people unlearn some of that stuff to learn the special needs that these dogs have, and as you both know, you've heard me say this over and over and over again. My three favorite words are improvise, adapt, and overcome, and you have to be fluid, you have to be able to change your thought pattern midstream when you're interacting with some of these dogs. I, I just went up and spent time with 40 beagles today, and I saw 40 different little canine personalities starting to make themselves known, and it's, it's the most rewarding, bittersweet, and joyous thing I can imagine, but it, it takes a special breed to really dedicate your, your time and and love and energy to these animals, which is again why I like working with both of you so much.

Lori Cohen  46:09  
You know what's so cool about us working together now, too. This is the greatest thing we see the start to the end now from all the dogs. We get to always stay in touch almost with all the dogs in some fashion, that is so cool, you know, like when Chelsea, you get to Kindness Ranch, and or John, I'll see photos, you're getting the dogs out of the laboratory, Chelsea's working with them, I'm on my way, and then, of course, then you guys see when we get them to their foster adopt homes, et cetera, and so we all sort of get to be a part of that dog's progress for longer now that we're working together, and now having this podcast, we're going to even extend the relationship time because we're going to go back and be inviting all of the people that ended up fostering and adopting, you know, whether it be through kindness, whether it be through the Beagle Alliance that have worked with Chelsea, and well, I'm going to meet some dogs that I didn't know, of course, that just you two knew, of course, John knows all the dogs, but it'll just be so fascinating and so cool to hear, as you said, Chelsea, everyone's individual stories and the intimate details of, you know, the some of the heartaches, the tears of joy, not just the oh my goodness, this dog played with a toy, but the, oh my gosh, this dog just peed on the floor for the 15th time today, and I was ready to have a nervous breakdown. Like, let's face it, those things happen, and that's why we love the people who take these dogs, because they really do the work, and they're the ones that are, you know, with that dog getting that dog through, and just as you said, John, unlearning what they know about dogs in general, because dogs, of course, we know by nature are outgoing, they're extroverts, they're in our faces, they're loving us no matter what, and these, you know, dogs are so scared and traumatized in the beginning that they're not running up to you at the door when you walk in the door, you know, the first little while, etc. Of course, I'm generalizing, all the dogs are different and have different personalities, but people have to unlearn their expectations in the beginning and just take it slow and realize that they'll get there, and we're going to get to hear the stories about how they got there, which is going to be cool.

Chelsey Marino  48:47  
Lori, working with the Fosters, do you ever feel like there's times when you have to have conversations about getting these people to wrap their head around that this dog may be different than the story they have in their head. This dog may not be what you think they are. You know, how do you get these people to fall in love with who this dog is and meet this dog where they are, instead of this imaginary idea that we may have in our head when we go to get our research dog?

Lori Cohen  49:18  
Oh, that's a good question. How do I get.. well, we do a lot of education with people. I have a lot of one on one conversations, and of course, you know, Chelsea, we have decided to do a town hall for all the groups that, when we go, you know, go get, say, 10 dogs from Kindness Ranch, that we get together as a group, and so I think that I think it's a little easier now, because there's so much more, like there's so much, there's more out there in social media and information, and more visuals that people see that these dogs aren't bounding towards other people, and they see how scared they're. So, there's a little bit more out there for people, but I think that there just has to be a level of having no pressure. You're not pressured to adopt. We have to do a foster-based, because we don't - we are foster-based. We don't have a facility, so nobody's coming to our, our place or any physical place, to meet dogs and decide that that's a match for them. They are taking dogs sight unseen, and I think that they.. well, it's such a complicated.. I'm not.. I'm actually having trouble answering the question. You know what it is? The first two weeks, maybe I'm going on a tangent, but I, you guys know I always go on a tangent anyway. So the first two weeks, no matter what I discuss and educate with people about how these dogs aren't going to be what you think, etc. etc. They have varying degrees of PTSD and anxiety, but the first two weeks, Chelsea, you and I always call it the honeymoon stage, and it's almost like the dog is a little bit shell-shocked and just wants to please the person wherever the dog is, because doesn't know if there's going to be harm around the corner or confinement around the corner or anything, so usually from, for example, the first two weeks I'll have most fosters telling me that they can't believe the dog was ever in a research facility, because they're so well adjusted. And after I stop laughing for fun, I say, well, yes, because this is the, are these things. And then by the third or fourth week, we always see that, you know the dog is feeling a little bit more safe, and now some, they're pushing the limit a little bit, like, and a beagle, a beagle is going to push the limit on a good day, so now they're starting to feel a little safer, and so they start with coming out, so I think that the level of prep that we do prior to the dog landing. I guess I'm finally getting to my answer. The level of prep that we do prior to the dog getting to the foster allows them to sort of be prepared and be ready for it, and on that, and I'm sure you've seen that, Chelsea and John. I'm guessing that you see that too. I would love to know if I would imagine you get calls in the same fashion.

John Ramer  52:30  
Oh, yeah, yeah, we definitely do. Once again, Chelsea's question reminded me of an entirely separate event, but we had a guy out here that he had a small rescue where he had some of his goats that his rescue was being shut down, and we took in some of his goats because they were well-balanced goats that helped our more shell-shocked ones kind of come out of their shell and find their confidence, like introducing a former research beagle to a balanced dog at home, it's a huge benefit for the research beagle. Well, we had to load the goats onto a trailer to get them to the sanctuary, and this guy gave us a 10 minute talk on how his goats were so traumatized from certain events that happened early on in their lives that there was no way in hell that they were going to get on this trailer for transport, and one of my guys said, "Well, let's just try it, and opened up a trailer door and shook a bucket of feed in the trailer, and all of this guy's goats went running onto the trailer, and I tell that story to get to, I think, part of Chelsea's question for me, anyway, led to that our adopters tell themselves this story of why these dogs can't overcome certain hurdles, and they talk themselves out of being successful with changing the dog's behavior before they even try by making all of these excuses from the dog's traumatic past, and that that is one of the biggest hurdles that we have to overcome when we're working with our adopters, is telling them to get out of the dog's way. They, the dog will will really show the adopter what the dog needs. It's not up to the adopter to have this entire movie already written, and know what the ending is before the dog even comes home.

Lori Cohen  54:45  
Chelsea, I need to ask you this without breaking any confidentiality, obviously. But do you get.. I feel that I am somewhat the gatekeeper of the Beagle Alliance, of course, because the dog is under. When people are fostering the dog is still under the care of the Beagle Alliance, and so I would like to know how many intimate personal stories you get when someone is calling you and is not entirely sure what to do with this dog, is maybe at the breaking point, is questioning their own sanity, is worried that they're going to break the poor dog, and I mean, do you hear, do you hear portions of people's

Lori Cohen  55:30  
lives that you really don't need?

Chelsey Marino  55:33  
I mean, listen, that's not even just keeper and kin, that's dog training in general, and when I hire on my dog trainers, you know, I have this one trainer under me right now, and she's my little protege, and she's been working with me for several years, and we're just teaching her how to do lessons, she did board and trains, and now she's doing lessons, so she has to start at the beginning where people don't know anything, and she has to work intimately with the family, and I tell her, you have to become a therapist, because they are going to tell you about their marital problems. They are going to tell you to tell each other these different things, and how you know. So, yeah, I get calls all the time from regular dog owners, and this is something so special about our podcast, and why people are going to connect with it is because the Beagle adopters and the Beagle Fosters, they have the same problems that everybody has with their dogs, and it's hard because we have this story in our head, and it's almost this: we don't want to do too much because we're going to re-traumatize them, but we don't want to do too little, because they'll never grow, and so these people are in this pull emotionally between, like, my dog is getting on my nerves right now, and like, this is happening, but I can understand it, because of their past, and like, but my husband is getting really frustrated, and like, the dog won't go near my kids, and like, there's all of these emotional things that everyone, as a human, goes through with a dog, and it's hard for the adopters and fosters of research beagles, because we do have this story in our head of them, and it makes us feel bad, and you know, in Command Canine, when we do some of our behavioral evaluations, like, I don't want to know your dog's history to a point, because I don't need to. Yes, it matters. It helps me kind of articulate, like, the why behind what's happening, but sometimes we have to forget the story, and John is right, like, these dogs get out of their way, you know? Like, once we figure out what we need to do with them, they just take over, and sometimes you would never realize what they have been through. So, yeah, a long-winded answer of, do I hear the emotional ups and downs all the time, and am I playing therapist all the time to the dog and to the human? 100% but that's why I love what I do, because it's so important, and it's hard work to have a dog with behavior issues in your home. It's hard work tediously, it's emotionally taxing, it's hard on your family, it's hard in the general public when you have to say, like, sorry, please don't pet my dog, like that's it's embarrassing for people, like it's very hard. So, I'm so glad we have this podcast, so we can hear some of these stories from these people, and our listeners are going to feel so connected, even if they don't have a research dog, because it's similar. It's so, so similar.

Lori Cohen  58:36  
Yeah, there's always a level of guilt when you have a dog. Am I leaving the dog too long, did I leave? You know all those things, even going on vacation, you know, all of the things that people who absolutely love their dogs go through. Did I do something wrong? What if I didn't do it right? What if my dog isn't, as you know, fulfilled as you want your dog to be, or happy, etc. I just think everyone who loves their dog can relate and is going to relate to this podcast again, whether they have a former research dog or not. But what, John, what's your most excited? What are you most excited about with this podcast?

John Ramer  59:16  
What I think is exciting for me is not just reconnecting with a lot of the dogs that have come through Kindness Ranch and the wonderful families that have opened up their hearts and homes to them. I'm excited about showing people by example that although our missions and our business models make us separate, but our compassion and willingness to collaborate for the greater good is what keeps us all together. We all have three very unique individual stories that share. Common outcome, and I think that's that's more of what the world needs right now, not tooting our horn too loudly, but somebody needs to lead by this example and show that different organizations can come together, find solutions and not problems, and we can all be successful and share in that success and raise everybody up and make sure that everybody has a seat at that table and can share in that success with

Lori Cohen  1:00:34  
us, yeah. Amen to that, John

Chelsey Marino  1:00:35  
Lori. What are you most excited?

Lori Cohen  1:00:37  
Well, several things, but I guess the I really, really believe that it is through our collective love for dogs that we will make a difference for all animals in research, and I know that I said that earlier. I fundamentally believe that, and I think that we can reach the hearts of so many people about what you said, John, about what we do, how we're able to come together and collaborate about animals and research, and how they are able to go in to homes after study, and that they can thrive, and that they can have second chances and live the lives that we all wish all dogs could live and and also I'm really excited to get to even get to know even some of the adopters that I've worked with but just get to know their story on a deeper level because you know when they have the dog, we connect here and there, and we certainly talk about the important aspects, but I'm thrilled to hear some of the day-to-day challenges and successes that maybe I just didn't hear over time. I think it'll be inspiring for all of us and inspiring for everybody else too.

Chelsey Marino  1:02:00  
Yeah, I agree with that. I think you know, I, I come into this equation after the dog is released. You know, I don't have anything to do with anything at the beginning of it, and I want to stay that way. It's not my role. My role is when the dog is released, and so I'm, I'm looking forward to hearing more stories from the people who are fostering or adopting, and what, what was going through their mind prior to either working with me or getting their dog, right? Like, when did they first hear about this? How did they want to get involved? What were their first thoughts going to get the dog? You know, the emotion behind those first little bits of time with their dog. I think those moments are so cool to hear, and they, you know, we all kind of remember when we went and got our dog, right? We know I can remember seeing my dog on the rescue website and figuring out what his name was, and bringing him home those first couple of days, and he's, he's not like just a rescue dog, you know, but he is just a rescue dog, right. So, hearing people tell their stories about this, this journey with these dogs, I think it's going to be great, and I think people are really going to connect with it and realize that this whole thing, it takes more than just being upset about animals and testing, and it takes more than just loving the dog afterwards. It's this gray area, it's this fine line, and it's emotional and hard. What I love about the two of you is you're willing to have those conversations and be real, and you're not just speaking for optics, and you're not just saying something because it looks good or it sounds good, you're sticking to your morals and your values, and you keep the dog at the center of everything, and you know, I want those stories to connect with people, and I think I'm really excited to hear more about that.

John Ramer  1:04:03  
Well, very good. Yeah,

Lori Cohen  1:04:07  
here we go.

John Ramer  1:04:08  
Here we go. For anybody that wants to get more information about any of our individual organizations, Chelsea, you want to give all your socials and a little shout out?

Chelsey Marino  1:04:20  
Sure, you can follow along with us at Instagram at Keeper dot and dot kin, or on our website, keeper and kin dot dog. That's the easiest for me.

John Ramer  1:04:31  
Lori,

Lori Cohen  1:04:32  
the Beagle Alliance on social media and the Beagle alliance.org Send us an email, adopt at the Beagle alliance.org and we can answer any questions you have. We love to talk about beagles all day long,

John Ramer  1:04:45  
and if you want to doom scroll a little bit for Kindness Ranch, you can find us on all of the socials or at Kindness ranch.org

Matt Cundill  1:04:54  
Thanks for listening to Dogs Beyond the Lab. For more, including comments, feedback, and. Ways to get in touch with our hosts, go to Beyond the Lab dot dog,

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:05:04  
produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company,

Unknown Speaker  1:05:08  
the.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai