Jean Unger: Patience, Purpose, and Beagles

John Ramer  0:00  
Hi. I'm John Raymer from kindness ranch animal sanctuary in Wyoming.

Lori Cohen  0:04  
And I'm Lori Cohen from the Beagle Alliance in Manitoba, Canada. 

Chelsey Marino  0:08  
And I'm Chelsea Marino from keeper and kin in Charlotte, North Carolina. And this is dogs beyond the lab.

John Ramer  0:18  
Laurie, Chelsea, welcome.

Jean Unger  0:20  
Hi,

Jean Unger  0:20  
John, happy to be here. Hi Chelsea.

John Ramer  0:22  
So much going on in Wyoming right now. It's kind of crazy. We just put up a listing for a new cat caretaker. And Chelsea, I bring this up because you're going to have an opinion on it. This, this applicant that applied through indeed said that they are self employed and that they have a degree in Google for their cat and dog training, and they've relied entirely on Google for learning how to work with the cats and dogs, and they've been in business now for three years, and they want to come out here and be a manager.

Chelsey Marino  1:07  
Well, if they have been in business for three years, Does that not mean they have three years of hands on experience?

John Ramer  1:13  
That's a good question. My My thought process was, if they've been in business for three years, they're obviously failing if they want to get a real job.

Chelsey Marino  1:26  
I guess I don't know how much information there is out there on Cat Training, nor how much interest there is in anyone hiring a cat trainer, and how good, how easily are cats trained.

John Ramer  1:39  
The first thing I thought of when I thought of them claiming to have a Google degree was how much information is available for former research cats and dogs.

Jean Unger  1:55  
I'll tell you, there's very little.

John Ramer  1:57  
And that was why I thought of both you and Laurie on this, because, especially with Lori being in Canada and the the lack of information on animals and research up there, but how, how many times have either of you run into a foster or an adopter saying that They did all of their research online, and they can't find anything that works

Jean Unger  2:25  
all the

Lori Cohen  2:25  
time, all the time.

Jean Unger  2:27  
I think having online resources is great, but especially when you get into something so hyper specific, like a behavior issue or a research animal, there's very, very little information out there and normal things don't really work, so it is hard to find information, which is a big part of why I created our company to try and help.

Lori Cohen  2:49  
And we see it all the time, because, and this is an education piece, and Chelsea and I know this firsthand and have dealt with it recently, is that people look up usually just using the Google example, people use Google to find an in home trainer, so they want to find a trainer that can come into their home, and they are under the impression that that is going to give them the best chance for success with the dog. And I think it's great that now we're chatting with people and saying, listen your dog. It's like having company come over. Your dog is going to act differently when someone else is in the home. And on top of it, if you are working with someone virtually, the way Chelsea does, is that you're going to get the opportunity to bond with your dog and do the work with your dog. I just think the whole virtual training is a win, win on so many levels. Yeah,

Jean Unger  3:44  
I agree. I mean, I tell people a lot on the phone, because we do virtual training for, obviously the beagles that we work with, but also the normal pet dogs in my other company command canine. And I tell people, do you want somebody close to you, or do you want somebody good and experienced and an expert in this, because you could go either way. But when you have something you need expertise in, I personally would want somebody who does that.

John Ramer  4:13  
Well, yeah, finding somebody good is always going to be the priority. The difficult thing that we run into out here, and I'm sure you both do as well, is it's former research animals, and the things that make them unique and special and different also make them incredibly difficult to find specialized care for, right?

Jean Unger  4:39  
Absolutely. And

Lori Cohen  4:40  
then there's cats, so

John Ramer  4:42  
and then there's,

Lori Cohen  4:47  
where do we go with the cats?

Jean Unger  4:49  
I think the two of you are really good at finding the right people for these animals. I mean, that's something both of you are really good at, and is very important to you. So. So that's a plus for somebody like me. On the other end of working with those people, it's always nice to have them be prepared and understanding and the right person most of the time for the for the animals,

John Ramer  5:11  
one of the unique challenges that kindness ranch has with finding homes for cats is our location, because there's such a stray cat problem in every major and minor township everywhere, that when people think that they want a cat, they always know somebody that just had kittens, or, you know they're they're gonna go get a free cat from somebody it takes a little longer to find somebody that's actively seeking out a cat that was formerly used in research.

Lori Cohen  5:43  
I agree,

John Ramer  5:44  
a challenge. It's a big challenge.

Lori Cohen  5:47  
I'm in rural Manitoba. We know everyone could go to the neighbor a mile down the road and pick up a free kitty and save that dog's life. So it is a challenge to find someone who wants to take the time to seek out a former research cat and then do the appropriate training or decompression or whatever they might need? They're tricky. They're tricky to find placement for for sure,

Chelsey Marino  6:15  
I think it's important the work that you know you all are doing and getting the word out there, because I was somebody several years ago who didn't know, or didn't want to know, that animals were still used in research. I think a lot of people pushed that to the back of their head. So I think there is a lot of people out there who will really, really want a former research cat. They may just not realize that exists, or there's the opportunity to get those animals. So the outreach, and the more that you all talk about this thing, I think you'll hopefully get some more people in there, because who wouldn't want one of those cats?

John Ramer  6:53  
We had somebody visiting a little while ago that said that their daughter wanted to become a veterinarian and help animals. And I made the mistake of saying that we might have a few too many veterinarians. What we need is a good PR person to just raise awareness on on all of these animals and research.

Lori Cohen  7:17  
Well, welcome to Canada. Nobody knows that it's going on. So hopefully, as we get together and and thank you for the compliment Chelsea about matchmaking and making sure the animals end up with the perfect families. Hopefully we can sort of use this platform to help people know a that animal testing is going on across the world, but we are speaking about Canada and the United States, and that they have all of our support. And Chelsea, your support of the people who have decided to foster and adopt is undeniable. And again, it just speaks to the fact that not one organization or one person can do it all. We have to work together so that we spread awareness and so that the dogs are released, or the cats that are released are supported in every way, so they end up having amazing lives for the rest of their lives. Before

John Ramer  8:09  
we move on, let's let's each give an example of something that Google might say about a former research dog that absolutely does not equate to a regular training situation,

Jean Unger  8:26  
that it's not a regular training situation, or that's something that's completely wrong,

John Ramer  8:31  
completely wrong. When it comes to her former research dog,

Jean Unger  8:34  
I have a really good I have several really good ones, but something that recently I was talking about is you had that dog, Taj at your facility, and Taj immediately got released from research, and he had this almost OCD thing where he spun around in circles and spun around in circles and spun around in circles. And if you were to Google something like that, like my dog won't sit still. He's spinning around in circles. He's making a moat of the grass and the whatever Google's likely going to tell you that he needs more exercise, or he needs puzzle toys, or he needs to have some structure and obedience and like these normal things that you would think for a normal dog who is high strung and cannot settle in the house, but with a former research dog, and specifically Taj, he needed the opposite. He was two in his head, so any more information that you were to give him, he wouldn't be able to process anything. He actually needed to slow down and get out of his head and more physically into his body and into this instinctual frame of mind, and that's ended up what I did with him. And then his new adopters continued to do the same thing, and he's doing fantastic now. I talked to them, you know, a couple weeks ago, but Google will tell you one thing, and if you were to do exercise or puzzle toys or structure, OPT. Audience like he, again, that's just too much information to process. He, it would have backfired dramatically.

Lori Cohen  10:08  
I think mine's a similar example. I'm not necessarily sure on whether Google gave these people the information, but we one of the dogs we got from you, John, a couple of years ago, went into a foster family, and they had no intention of adopting. They just wanted to help the movement and help, you know, transition a dog from research into a home. So the dog ended up being adopted by someone in Manitoba. And the first instinct, and I do, I do believe they look this up. So where they found this? I don't know, maybe Google, but similar to Chelsea, they looked it up, and the answers that they got, or they received, were that the dog obviously needed to become a dog, and therefore they enrolled him in obedience and all sorts of tricks school. And at this point, the dog had only been out of research for a few months, and really, then had made a second move, and again, needed time to decompress and really just feel safe. And they were told that the dog needed to, you know, do different activities and be engaged, etc. And just as you say, Chelsea, we it's an over stimulation too soon. And that must be a common way in which people look at things like that.

John Ramer  11:34  
You know, there is a school of thought where people feel like flooding their dog with stimulation until they actually shut down, is the best way to make it receptive to new information and behavior conditioning, which is something I am vehemently against, especially with our former research animals.

Lori Cohen  11:55  
Are you guys tricks people? Because I sometimes feel guilty that I that I don't train my dogs to do tricks. And I guess when I was a kid and had dogs, it was always something I wanted to do. I wanted the dog to shake a paw. I wanted to the dog to roll over, and it was cute, and certainly it's a bonding thing. But I did a presentation at a school the other day, and Poppy and Lily came and of course, Poppy was the first rescue dog for the Beagle Alliance, but she's not a former research dog. She's a failed detection dog, so she had a similar background where she still suffers from varying degrees of PTSD and anxiety, fast movements, loud sounds. They still all get her and but I took her, because I knew if Lily came with her, she would feel confident. And it was 20 kids, and we had a great time. And I mean, of course, she's been with me for three years, so I knew she wasn't going to be freaked out. The question that came up, and I was kind of embarrassed, was, Oh, does your dog shake a paw? And I'm like, No, so, because I'm just, I think of my dogs as the Companions I live with. I probably talk too much to them as if they're listening and understanding my language, and I just don't teach them tricks. I don't think about it as wanting them to do tricks on command.

Jean Unger  13:20  
Yeah. I think my thought with that is, it depends on the dog. It depends on the person. And that's what I say for almost all of behavior questions that I get, is it depends. And I think if you have a dog who you were going around and like, for instance, if John and uno were spending a lot of their time traveling out and they were going to elementary schools or 4h things, or something like that, I would encourage John to teach some tricks, because that's what the kids want to see, right? And that's fun and something they can do with the dog. So I think in that point, tricks are cool. And the only other time that I really like to do, not the only time, but a time that I do use tricks, is when I have a dog who, number one, either needs to build their confidence, or, number two, wants to be in charge. So a lot of eagles sometimes, and a lot of dogs, like Blue Heelers, hounds in general, they like to think that they're in charge. So the type of trick training I do, they almost think they're leading the situation. And they almost think like, I'm gonna do this because I want to, and you can teach them anything with that. It's called shaping. But that's when I teach tricks. When I need a dog who wants to show off a little bit, whether that's because that's the dog, or I want to build their confidence, that's when I'll use them. And I tell my clients like, I don't care what you teach them. You could teach a dog to do literally, whatever that you can think of, but generally, no,

John Ramer  14:42  
it's funny that you you say, if I was taking uno to elementary schools, that I should teach him tricks, because that's what everybody wants. Every single time Uno and I are in Washington, DC, on Capitol Hill, every representative we meet with tries to get him to sit and shake and roll over and.

Jean Unger  15:00  
Yeah, I do think shake. A lot of people will tell me that they teach their dog to shake, and I find that your dog starts kind of like punching you a little bit more, or like they always go to shake their hand. And so I'm like, that's not the best one. I like to teach them, like, spin around or something like that. I think is funnier. But

Lori Cohen  15:17  
okay, I was gonna teach them hurdles. I kind of thought maybe Poppy would do okay with hurdles, because she does have a spring in her step. But I do find that with male beagles, they do have to be in charge. They are the dogs that you could tell them to stay or to come, and they have to veer around, do something different and then do what you asked in the first place as long as they've made it look like they've decided it was their decision, like you're not going to tell me, I'll do it on my time. That's what I find male beagles.

Jean Unger  15:49  
Yeah, I agree. I use that to my advantage a lot of the time, because I know that about a lot of type of instinctual dogs are like that, and I tell people to capitalize on it and make make your dog think they're in charge. That's okay if we all get to the same point. It's okay if they think that it's their decision. I don't like to work against those things and be like, do it or else,

Lori Cohen  16:11  
right?

Jean Unger  16:12  
As long as they do what I really want them to do. And you know what? It's the same for spouses. Sometimes we came up with that idea on your own, babe, then you're so smart, you too, can

Lori Cohen  16:26  
manipulate your dog, so long as it's in love, you may ghost do it. 

John Ramer  16:31  
So other than the little snide remark about spouses, what what I'm hearing and feeling for all three of us is that regardless of how much we know right now and how much experience we have, we're all still learning, and we have to be open to the new dogs, new personalities, new People involved. And even though, between the three of us, we've worked with hundreds upon hundreds of former research beagles, even repeated doctors are still getting new information and adjusting how they interact with their former research beagles, which I think is a great way for us to circle around and welcome our guest today, Jean Unger, who has personally adopted multiple research beagles and is gracious enough to join us and share her experience and everything that She's learned. So welcome Jean.

Jean Unger  17:40  
Hi Jean. Hi. Jean, hi. Jean, Hi.

John Ramer  17:43  
Thanks so much for joining us. So take us back to the very beginning on on how you met and adopted your very first research Beagle.

Jean Unger  17:52  
So we had a lab at not a lab dog, a Labrador Retriever at the time, named butters, and I think she was part Beagle. Her records said that, but there was something about her. I thought if we got her a friend, I think an old Beagle would be a great companion for her. And I don't really know where that came from, but someone in our neighborhood was fostering an older Beagle and posted it on our neighborhood chat board. So I had her bring, bring the dog over to meet him, and five minutes later, he became our first laboratory rescue dog. His name was Henry, and I knew nothing about this phenomenon at all at the time, so he was really our introduction into that the person who was fostering him was fostering him through kindness ranch. So she told us all about kindness ranch and the history of laboratory research beagles, and how they came to foster him. And that's that started my entire journey in this world. I really knew nothing about it. So Henry was our first that's my origin story with with foster beat, with laboratory beagles.

John Ramer  19:08  
So that's how you heard about kindness ranch.

Jean Unger  19:10  
That's how I heard about kindness Ranch, yep. And the rest is history. Here we are. That was 2018 and for the listeners, I spend a great deal of time up at kindness Ranch, working with the dogs and just devoting devoting my time to to helping there.

Lori Cohen  19:30  
Gene, will you introduce the doggie with you right now? Yes.

Jean Unger  19:34  
So John mentioned that I've adopted several research vehicles. This dog is chance, formerly named Ajax, and I am at my brother's house in Massachusetts, and he needed a dog, so I adopted a then Ajax from kindness ranch and drove him out here last June. It's about a year ago today, drove him out here, and he's been here with my brother as my brother's. Dog ever since, and you guys can see how remarkably calm he is like this. This is absolutely amazing. I spent three days on the road with this guy, and he was anything but calm. We stayed in hotels together, and, you know, I tried to walk him, and it was all new, you know, and now here we are, a year later, and it's just a testament to when these guys get in a good, loving home, what can what can happen to them, how they can decompress, and

John Ramer  20:32  
environment definitely plays a big role in it.

Jean Unger  20:35  
Yeah,

Chelsey Marino  20:35  
I think this is an interesting conversation with Gene, because several people that we will be talking to are six months, 12 months, several years into having their dog. And Jean has a unique perspective, because she has had research dogs, and she's had research dogs past, but she also has a brand new research dog, so she's at the beginning stage of this journey with her dog, and I think that that is going to be a unique perspective on the whole journey. And you've seen things from the very beginning at the ranch, and you've had several dogs, and now you're just restarting this whole journey again.

Jean Unger  21:22  
Yeah, that's right. So we had Henry for four years before he died, and then I just adopted cinnamon six weeks ago from kindness Ranch, so she's brand new in our home, and you're right, Chelsea, I've seen them, you know, at every stage, having spent time at kindness Ranch, I actually did a transport one, so literally coming from the lab to the ranch, spending time at the ranch, bringing them home, spending years with them, I have sort of witnessed the entire spectrum of what it's like. Cinnamon is doing great. She's a little bit more fearful than she was when we first got her home. So when I met her at kindness Ranch, she was just out of surgery. She had 17 teeth removed, and she had just been spayed, so she was really she was in pain, and she was scared and she was really skittish, and mostly just curled up in the corner by herself all day long. And that day was my the first day I met her, then I went home for a little while, and I came back to visit the ranch, and had had cinnamon stay with me in in my yurt overnight, just to have her with me. And that night, she was a different dog. You know, she was exploring and cuddly, and so by morning, I decided she was coming home with me.

Jean Unger  22:43  
So did you go into this with cinnamon knowing you wanted to get another dog, and if you were open to that, was there a specific type that you were looking for, or is cinnamon one of those dogs who you just kind of became connected to, and it just happened to work out where you felt this calling towards her, and she was your dog. So I guess were you looking for something specific, or was it just this moment of connection between the two of you?

John Ramer  23:14  
I can answer that because Jean, Jean falls in love with every dog that comes through the sanctuary. Of course, it took a special dog for her to actually say this. One's mind. So go ahead, Jean,

Jean Unger  23:28  
yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It's a little bit of both. We had lots. So butter is our Labrador that I was talking about before we lost her at 16 in December. So I wasn't, I wasn't in the you know, you always say, I'm going to give myself time and and that was December, and by, you know, February, I was adopting cinnamon, so I wasn't quite in the market for one necessarily, but I think I'm very good at sort of cluing into matching up people with their dogs, and that includes me knowing the demeanor and what kind of dog I want to have in my life that will fit well into into my life. And it's actually the same with with chance Charlie, my brother, wanted a beagle, and you know, he, he set me on that mission to find him one. And he's he's wonderful. He's great with dogs, but he's not the most patient person on the planet, so knowing that, I was like, well, he needs a more secure dog that doesn't need quite as much work, quite as much attention. And Ajax came up to me when I was in the art and was just so confident, I just knew that it would be a good match. And it turned out to be. So it's a little bit instinct, it's a little bit knowing what, what is good for me, what I want. But then with cinnamon, it was definitely what John was referring to. Like we just there was a connection. You just feel it.

Lori Cohen  24:52  
I agree. I think they choose us gene. I think they choose us in a magical world, we think we're in control, but they choose. US, but I wanted to speak to John's statement about how we are all still learning, which is so true, and we will never know everything, because we know that every dog is an individual, and we're trying to match them up with then other individual, humans and people and families and so there's a learning curve for every single dog going everywhere. So on that note, Gene specific to kindness Ranch, could you talk about the journey

Lori Cohen  25:30  
of about being at kindness ranch? Obviously, you've seen more dogs than most fosters and adopters are going to ever see in coming out of research. What are your thoughts on their individuality and what you see and kind of the process that they go through while you're working with them at the ranch? 

Jean Unger  25:51  
They are definitely individuals, and they all have their own personalities, but on the flip side of that, there are things they all have in common when they first get to the ranch. What I will say is, during the process of bringing them to the ranch and then them spending, you know, a couple few weeks, whatever it is, acclimating, it's very hard to really judge what their behavior is going to be, because it's different in that environment than it's going to be once, once they get the dog home. So I just think it's really important to pay a lot of attention to each of the dogs, and we, I mean, the staff always does a kindness ranch, and I do when I'm there, just sort of getting to know the dog on an individual basis and understanding what what their instincts are, what their demeanor is, because it's nature versus nurture. And they, they do have a natural instinct, a natural personality that they come with, even if they're from the same litter, from the same lab, they are all unique and different.

Lori Cohen  26:51  
I love that was there one that you fell in love with that you didn't take home and not and I know John says you love them all. I know John says you love them all, and we do, of course. I mean, that's a given. You stare at them and you're in love with them, but is there one that you sit back and go, I should have done it.

Chelsey Marino  27:09  
I think that's such an interesting question. And I can piggyback a little off of this, because I feel similarly when I go to kindness ranch. And so I want Jean, I want you to explain, because I know John and Katie, and I'm sure Laurie also feel this way. So like help us describe what it's like to really connect with a dog, and in your experience, you're working with those dogs while you're there, and then have a connection to that dog, and then watch them go to another home. Because it is this conflicting emotions that we feel so describe that

Jean Unger  27:45  
okay, I can speak to one dog about that cilantro. So last summer, cilantro had been adopted, and for some reason, was returned to kindness ranch, and I was headed up there to help with a transfer. And during that time, I had brought up another Eagle noodle, who was rescued in Colorado, and needed, just needed to be somewhere for a couple of days while I was I was sort of fostering it. And so I brought him, brought noodle up to kindness ranch. I asked John If noodle could just stay there for the few days that I was going to be gone doing the transfer, cilantro was slated to go with us, and I guess he took to me. I mean, he came up to me in the yurt and started sitting on my lap and hugging me. And the staff member who was there was was kind of shocked. She said, he doesn't do that with anyone. And I was like, well, I might need to take cilantro home. Then, you know, cilantro was slated to go to a rescue in the morning or a foster home in the morning. Ultimately, it was fine, but that feeling that you described Chelsea is like, it's just, it's a mix of emotions. Because on one hand, I thought, Oh, I'm the only person. Now Cilantro has chosen me. I'm the only person that can take cilantro home, and I need to do this for him. And no, cilantro went to a great home and did fine, and is thriving. And it's so it's mixed emotions, because in the end, I was so relieved and happy to see him move on to a good home. But it's painful each time it's pain,

Matt Cundill  29:37  
and now dogs beyond the lab continues.

Lori Cohen  29:41  
I try not to get attached in any way. And of course, I'm doing transport, working with the dogs and then working with the Fosters. However, I had one of those moments, because the dog had to stay, I was sure to foster, and the male dog had to stay in my home for one month. And. My girls don't like any dogs. They are not happy with any dogs, and they loved this boy. And I kept saying, I'm never getting another boy Beagle because of the Beagle behind me, trouble who I loved. And I just don't want that. I just don't want to another boy. I want trouble to remain in the space in my heart and head forever. So I swore I'm only going to have girls and but I was slowly falling in love with this dog. And I'm like, this is a slippery slope. This is not good. The girls accept him. So as it turned out, as a side note, one of my board members ended up adopting at Lee, and so now I'm just an auntie, and I get to see him all the time, and it works out perfectly. So it worked.

Jean Unger  30:46  
You know, it does get easier. I will say that as as you see it happen, and because you're so happy for the dog in the end, I mean, that's all we we all want.

John Ramer  30:55  
So that's because you're part of the community now, and for for the people that may not know your direct connection with kindness ranch Jean is such a seasoned volunteer at kindness ranch that she's actually helped train new staff when they arrive. So her dedication at the sanctuary is unsurpassed. She was our Volunteer of the Year for 2025 and we're incredibly grateful to have her.

Jean Unger  31:21  
Thank you. First time that I met Jean, she really likes to understand the dogs and do everything that she can to help those dogs, and I know sometimes it may be like we're not doing enough for them. And I have conversations, and I've had a conversation with Gene before of you know what, anything that we can do for these dogs is good, and it's just going to make their life better. You're

Lori Cohen  31:49  
in it, and it's funny because your reputation, your reputation preceded you. John had spoken so highly of you, and when I walked in you, you just lived up to it all because you walked up, you hugged me, and I was like, this is the magical gene that I've heard so much about, and it's true. It's true. And then, of course, now you're embarrassed, well, it's true, and I so appreciate you because you're so immersed in it. You You're now coming to the Beagle Alliance town halls, and you're just, you're literally immersed in helping and saving and placing these dogs, and we are all lucky to have you. I know John feels that way, but we are all lucky to have you. So thank you.

Jean Unger  32:32  
Thank you. Thank you all. And I mean, I've learned so much from all three of you, and so honored to be working with you, really

John Ramer  32:40  
well. That kind of takes me to my my next question for you is, as I said, you're part of the community now, and with cinnamon, your your new family member. You mentioned that cinnamon was a little bit more fearful at times after going home and being part of this community. How do you navigate working through those little setbacks when you get cinnamon home? Do you do you reach out to Chelsea for help? Do you take advantage of our online Facebook groups? Do you feel like you're supported enough and have enough information to get through all of that?

Jean Unger  33:20  
Oh, absolutely no. I immediately reached out to Chelsea cinnamon, backtracked a little bit, you know, when she first got into the house, the first week, she was very outgoing and very brave, and so I had a moment of panic, or several moments of panic when she started to get fearful again. And I immediately reached out to Chelsea, who is brilliant, and she you know, she responded immediately. We talked she talked me through it. And one of the most valuable parts of our conversation, which we had talked about in the past, was was her knowing exactly what I was going through, and telling me, you know, it's okay. Don't beat yourself up. You didn't ruin your dog in the first week. You know, like she, she really understands this process, and she it's almost like therapy for for the the dog, you know, the person who, who, who adopts the dog, just being told that everything is okay and it's going to be okay, and this is normal, because this isn't something that will necessarily happen with a puppy or a well adjusted dog that you bring into your home you get you celebrate the moments of success, but there are also moments where they backtrack and you know, expected or not expected, it can be really scary and upsetting. So Chelsea is a phenomenal source of information and just a phenomenal person, as all three of you are, I said I'm just,

Chelsey Marino  34:49  
well,

Jean Unger  34:50  
it's my turn to embarrass all of you. Now, I do feel really supported. And John, you mentioned the Facebook page. Yeah, the. Adopters. And the adopters group, we're constantly on there sharing stories, and people are always asking for advice, and of course, I send them directly to Chelsea, but everyone has stories to share and information to share, and it's also it's just like, for lack of a better word, it's a safe place for all of us. We don't judge each other, we don't criticize we're all in it together. And at the end of the day, it's all about our dogs and what's best for them. And I love that about this community, the whole the kindness Ranch community, Lori, the big Beagle Alliance, Chelsea, and what she does like this. This is just the most outstanding community of people I have ever been involved with

Jean Unger  35:42  
Jean. Is there a point with with cinnamon, or even with Henry? And you do have a lot of experience with these dogs, and you can prepare yourself enough, but is there a point that you can remember thinking that you don't know if you're the right person, or it's the right home for the dog that you had,

Jean Unger  36:03  
to the extent that the environment and how many other dogs and pets we have in the house. Yes, I don't think I had any concern about my relationship or my husband's relationship with the dog and whether we were right for them. But, you know, do we? Is it okay that there's another dog in the house, or right now there is no other dog in the house? Is that okay our yard is what I considered a perfect yard for a dog, but parts of it, cinnamon seems to find scary. I don't know if it's the trees or barking on the other side of the fence, so at those times, I think I wonder if she would be better off in a different kind of yard. So those kind of questions, but in terms of personality matches to the dog, no, there have. There haven't been any concerns there. You know, I certainly Chelsea. We've talked Am I doing the right thing in this scenario. So I guess I have doubted myself in certain scenarios, but then I can, I have you to ask, and you usually calm me down.

Jean Unger  37:09  
I think a lot of fosters and adopters, and I know Lori will agree with me on this, because we've had several conversations with each other and also with other fosters and adopters that especially at the beginning, they overthink and they worry. Am I, you know, even things like your yard, like they're afraid of this area or that area, or should I not walk around this room, or what if they don't want to do this? And that's a hard point to be at. And something I know Laurie and I both say all the time is just relax, you know, like, if you're showing up for your dog and you're keeping your dog safe, that's all they need right now, there are obviously little things that we can do to make it better for them, but I think it's, it's a definite part of this process is wondering if we're doing enough, because we want to give this dog everything, because we know this is their second chance. And I think sometimes we question ourselves if we're doing the right thing, or we're the right person, or should I do this, that or the other? And it gets hard

John Ramer  38:15  
on the flip side of that. Chelsea in in 2022 when the troubled in Vigo breeding facility had to release nearly 4000 dogs, there were a lot of very well intentioned people that didn't think about it enough and brought in these these dogs that were suffering from being very under socialized, traumatized, and they got themselves in so far over their head that they didn't know what to do. And the public awareness wasn't as much as it is today. There wasn't people as specialized as you that were on a public platform, and I, I know Jean. You've had experience with some of those dogs, Chelsea, you have Lori, obviously you and I have there's going back to what Chelsea said earlier in in the conversation. It depends. It depends on the people. It depends on the dog. And when you, when you flood local municipal shelters with these former research animals, and they, they don't have the training or or the public awareness, those poor dogs, just they really, really suffer for even longer. I think

Lori Cohen  39:46  
that's such a great point. It's true. And of course, even as Gene you saying that you feel supported, and that's pretty much our our goal is that not only are we helping the dogs transition, but we're supporting the people who. Are bringing the dogs into their homes. For us as a foster based organization, we don't have a facility, and therefore the people who foster and then usually adopt the dogs, are taking a dog sight unseen. They have no idea what dog they're getting, and they constantly question themselves as is, Am I doing the right thing for the dog? And the important thing for us is to just reinforce that. Again, as a foster based organization, we wouldn't be able to get dogs out and help kindness ranch if they didn't say yes to taking the dog in. So they've already done such an amazing thing by taking the dog, and then they have to just be forgiving and let themselves, just as Chelsea says, relax and not be so hard on themselves and and I see so many fosters get anxious, and then that anxiousness transfers to the dog. So I the way in which I kind of get them to snap out of a little out of it a little bit, is to say, You know what, The more relaxed you are, the more relaxed the dog's going to be, and you guys are going to enjoy your time together, and then you can see whether it's a match and what that looks like. But it really is making sure that fosters and adopters don't feel alone. And I think we could all agree that, you know, the support is not just it's all about the dog and making sure the dog's safe, but the people are the you know, you gene and the Fosters and adopters, you guys are the heroes out there, working every day with these dogs and and taking them in and listening to whatever experience we have, And we just want to be there for you, because you're doing the hard work, you're doing the work.

Jean Unger  41:45  
I think it's such a good perspective to have both of those angles, right? Like it is something very, very serious, but also, don't take it too seriously. And that's a hard line to to. It's very hard. And I guess when I even had that previous statement, I'm picturing fosters and adopters with the two of your organizations, but John, you're absolutely right. A random person should not go get this dog if they're not prepared, and they don't know what could happen, what to do, and that there are people there to help them, because they are very different dogs. And yeah, there are some things that you should be doing, and you should know with them. But also at the same time, if you have been vetted, if you are prepared for it, then there is a level of okay. We know who you are. We know your home is safe. We know you are prepared, mentally and emotionally for this. Now, just keep the dog safe and relax, and you guys will get into a groove together. And if something happens, you have the rest of us to reach out to exactly

Lori Cohen  42:47  
we will walk you through it.

John Ramer  42:48  
Gene, I've got another question for you as as we start to wrap up for today, what is a little bit of life lesson when it comes to these dogs,

Jean Unger  43:03  
John, do you want to ask that again? Do you want to mute Laurie then ask that question again?

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  43:07  
You

Lori Cohen  43:08  
guys, good question. Do you want Poppy on the podcast? Or what's the deal here?

John Ramer  43:12  
I'm gonna mute you for a second. Laurie, so gene, as as we wrap up for the day, what is a good life lesson in the world of former research beagles that you would like to share with anybody listening

Jean Unger  43:32  
multiple but I'll try and I'll try and keep my answer somewhat succinct. Lessons that I have learned are I learn more from the dog than they learn from me. I'm quite sure of that. I mean, the love, affection, the trust they have in human beings is remarkable given their circumstances, their bravery, resilience. So all of that are lessons that I learn every day, from cinnamon and from every research Beagle that I've been around. But as far as a person taking one of these dogs in as a foster or an adopter, patience, patience, patience. Patience is the most important characteristic to have with them. Let them do what they need to do. Don't force them into things. You know, we were talking about beating yourself, beating yourself up. And I kind of wanted to correct myself that. I'm pretty sure I caused cinnamons anxiety. I don't think

Jean Unger  44:35  
you did.

Jean Unger  44:35  
You know, I can be anxious sometimes, so it's my fault she got anxious. But I'm kidding, yeah, but yeah, just sort of being in their world, you know, China's China as much as you can get. Get your mind into their minds and imagine, you know, walking into a room for the first time, or hearing a door close for the first time. Um, as hard as that is, I think, I think that's the best way to work with your dog and understand what they're going through as you, as you go on that this journey with them.

Jean Unger  45:12  
You said that you feel like you have been changed more than you have been changed, or you said that you have been changed more than you have changed their lives.

Jean Unger  45:23  
Yeah, I don't think I said it as articulately as that, but that's what I know. I

Jean Unger  45:26  
think you said it better than I did explain that to me. Explain what you mean by that, and what specific things do you think are different about you now, after you know your several research dogs, and maybe even individually after each dog, what has that dog changed about you?

Jean Unger  45:45  
Meeting Henry, coming into the world of research beagles, being a part of this community. It's been about four, four or five years now, and I think I have become just a more intentional person, a more centered person. I know. I know where my passion is now. I know where I want to be and where who I want to be. Working with the dogs, this gave me purpose in my life. I mean, it really did. I I can't even help myself. You know, John, like John hears for me every week, is there, is there a place available for me to stay? I can't, I can't stay away from kindness ranch. I can't stay away from the dogs like I it's just been it's brought something out in me that I didn't, I didn't know existed. That sounds so melodramatic, but it really has working with these dogs is just it's life changing to see them.

Lori Cohen  46:45  
I don't think it sounds that, yeah, I'm sitting here like I feel the same way. Yeah, yeah. I don't sorry. Gene, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I don't. I don't think it sounds melodramatic. I hear that all the time, and I think we all do, and it's very inspiring to hear how important the dogs in our lives are. I mean, I wouldn't even be doing this work if I hadn't have ended up with a beagle and looked up beagles and had no idea, you know, 15 years ago they were being tested on so I I love that you're sharing that. I think that's a great question. Chelsea, and I just think that I think everyone with a dog, let alone a former research dog, has that same feeling that their dog has made them a better person, in a way. And I thank you for thank you for sharing that. I think that's really special.

John Ramer  47:39  
So gene now you get to ask the question,

Lori Cohen  47:42  
yes,

John Ramer  47:44  
it's your your free advice. Time you get to pick our brain. What's one question that you would have for each of us to help your journey a little bit more?

Jean Unger  47:55  
Well, I Laurie kind of just answered the question that I would have for each of you, which is that, how has, how has this? What's your origin story? In, get in, in introduction into this world, and how did, how did it change your lives?

Lori Cohen  48:11  
Am I answering first only because you said my name gene, but, well, that dog, this dog beside me, trouble, sort of wandered into my world, and I had just lost two of my dogs, and I had one lonely dog at home, and he I knew nothing about beagles. In fact, no, I thought I knew something about beagles. I actually thought the beagles were pocket dogs that Hollywood ladies walked around with in their purse. Okay, so that's how I thought of beagles. I didn't realize that they were fun loving scent towns, just tough, little witty crafty dogs, and I ended up getting the wittiest and craftiest dog. So I didn't know why this dog was escaping. I had no frame of reference. So again, Google, I Googled beagles, and the first thing that came up was former research beagles walking on grass for the first time, and like so many people probably out there, I was mortified and wondering how this could be going on. And so I started volunteering with an organization where I eventually started working at and then through that, realized that nobody in Canada knew this was going on. And of course, that's how the Beagle Alliance started. Is because in Canada the laws are, there are no laws, and there's no legislation, and there's nobody protecting animals in research in Canada. And so that is it in a very, very 32nd maybe little snippet.

Jean Unger  49:58  
Well, good. Good for you. For being the person to start saving them.

Lori Cohen  50:03  
Well, thanks to John and kindness Ranch, so thank you.

Jean Unger  50:08  
I have been working in dog behavior for over a decade now, and I got connected to somebody who had two dogs from in Vigo, and they were having a lot of trouble after hiring several trainers who suggested heavily medicating and euthanizing, and the dogs would never, ever get along, and so you need to pick your favorite. And they didn't accept that, luckily. So I got connected with them and talked to colleague of mine that I knew, who knew a lot more about former research beagles, and I started learning what I could about them, and I helped out these clients to the point where hopefully they're on the show one day talking about their dogs. And I think anyone who is around these dogs has the same feeling as I did, which is, this is something amazing. And you follow up with these dogs, no matter if you meet them, if you meet John and uno on Capitol Hill one day, you fall in love with them. Or if you get a dog, or work with these research dogs, you fall in love with them. And I felt that click moment where I was like, similar to how you felt. Gene of this is bringing something out different in me, and this is something that I feel like I need to do for the rest of my life. And I met John and Lori that way. And luckily, I got to go out to kindness ranch and work with those dogs in person for the first time. And now I can go out as much as I can convince my husband to let me go and we can go out there. And I just started working with dogs from kindness ranch and dogs from Beagle Alliance, and any other people out there who needed help with their research beagles. Because I think my background with behavior, and then all of my hands on experience over the past several years working with these dogs, my mission now is to help not only the dogs, but the people like yourself who have these dogs and who do overthink things and have these questions and and that's it's hard to figure out what to do when you don't know what to do, and no one should know what to do, because even myself, working with these dogs for for a while, I had to relearn some things because their their brains are a little bit different than dogs who have not lived the same life that they have. So I wouldn't expect the average person or the average dog trainer to to understand how to help and that struck me as something that I have a unique ability to do, is help these dogs and help these people. And I just I love it, and it's what I was meant to do in this world.

John Ramer  52:43  
Well, I guess it's my turn. And as of the recording of this episode, it marks my 26th year working in Animal Rescue. And along about seven and a half, almost eight years ago, I was working as a sanctuary manager at a primate sanctuary in Florida, where I was introduced to former research primates for the very first time. And I was I knew that they tested on animals, but I was really caught off guard by the fact that they were able to release them, and I saw how troubled and traumatized the squirrel monkeys were that just came in from a federal facility, and I knew that it was the direction that I needed to go into. And I found kindness ranch and moved into the director role. But I don't, I don't consider that my origin story, my my origin story, I feel is ever evolving. Because whenever I meet people like Laurie and like Chelsea and you as well. Gene it changes who kindness Ranch is and who we become, because it is a community and it's ever evolving. And if you don't evolve, you get left behind. So when you meet amazing people in this industry, you maintain those relationships, you include them in your plans and allow them a seat at the table to help navigate the troubled times that this industry throws at you every day. So I'm I'm always incredibly grateful for all of the wonderful people that we get to work with, for all of the people that we get to meet and shape the journey that we're all on

Jean Unger  54:44  
and we are thankful for. For you also,

Lori Cohen  54:47  
yeah, well said, John, that's amazing. John's made more of a difference for research animals in Canada than people realize just by trusting us and I can there's nowhere. For my gratitude for you guys. So thank you for saying that it is. So back at you. I'm

John Ramer  55:06  
just an enabler. Is all

Jean Unger  55:08  
I think

Jean Unger  55:09  
you both have. I think you both have made so much difference for dogs in research, more than anyone knows and and that's that's the hard part about some of this, sometimes, is no one really knows all of the things that that John and Laurie do for these dogs, and the dogs know, and it pays off, because you guys are helping a lot of dogs, and it's fantastic.

Jean Unger  55:30  
Oh, the dog, the job easier with you dogs know when John, when John walks into the yurt, the dogs know him as the person that

Lori Cohen  55:38  
I love that well, they are smarter than us. Sometimes, aren't they?

Jean Unger  55:42  
They certainly think they are.

Lori Cohen  55:44  
Yes. Oh, every Beagle thinks they're smarter than us. You guys, you know that. That's the Beagle nature.

John Ramer  55:51  
Well, I want to close just by reminding everybody that you don't need a former research animal to get anything from our discussions here, the life lessons and training behavior tips and tricks that we all share are pretty much universal. I'd like to give Laurie and Chelsea a chance to throw out their social contacts for quick follows and any closing words that they want to share.

Jean Unger  56:17  
I'll go my social media. Let me make sure I get it right. You can find the work that I do with former research beagles on Instagram. It's keeper dot and kin spelled out keeper. Keeper is the people sitting here right now. Keepers are people like John's and Lori's and jeans and adopters and fosters and myself, we're all keepers of these dogs and the kin are the dogs, and anyone listening is also a keeper, any anything that you have to do with that. And so that is the keeper, keeper and kin on Instagram,

Lori Cohen  56:53  
well, the Beagle Alliance on all social media, pretty easy to find. Closing thoughts, I think I agree John. I think absolutely in order to be interested and listen to the podcast, you certainly don't have to have a former research Beagle. I think that, yes, that will be the focus. But of course, this, these discussions really speak to how important dogs are in in our lives, in our community, and how we just value their companionship. And I think there's a lot of great stories to be had about how our dogs really do change the course of our lives, in some cases. So thank you all. Thank you Jean. Thank you all.

John Ramer  57:45  
Well you can also follow kindness ranch at kindness ranch.org or kindness ranch on all of our socials. Gene, it has been an absolute honor to share the last hour or so with you. Thank you so much for joining us before I stop recording. Do you want to throw anything out let people know what you're up to or when you're going to be back to the sanctuary next

Jean Unger  58:08  
you when you posed that I should ask the next question I was going to say, When can I come back? John,

John Ramer  58:17  
you have a year with your name on

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  58:19  
it.

Lori Cohen  58:19  
When can I come back? John,

John Ramer  58:22  
with your name on it? Same with you, Chelsea and Chelsea, it didn't go unnoticed that you said that you can come back as often as needed and not as often as you want.

Jean Unger  58:35  
John, you and I share that same thought process. You and I are very much under the impression that we would do this for $0 because we just want to all the time. And I know my husband is, he's the business end of everything I do, so he balances me out a little bit. But you know, I'd be out at kindness ranch all the time if we could.

John Ramer  58:56  
I have a board of directors that reminds me of the financial side.

Lori Cohen  59:00  
Yes, John, exactly. I cannot just come and hang out.

Jean Unger  59:05  
I know we're closing, but you were all talking about what, why people might want to listen to this podcast. And I'd like to add something. It is about the dogs and this this community, but also about human nature and what we learned from the dogs and community how we work together. So I think even if you don't have a research dog, we never heard of any of this, there's so much that people can get out of this podcast.

John Ramer  59:34  
Absolutely, very well said.

Matt Cundill  59:38  
Thanks for listening to dogs beyond the lab for more, including comments feedback and ways to get in touch with our hosts. Go to beyond the lab. Dot dog,

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  59:48  
produced and distributed by the sound off media company. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai