Raising Kane: the Anxiety the Milestones, and the Love…

John Ramer  0:00  
I'm John Raymer from Kindness Ranch Animal Sanctuary in Wyoming,

Lori Cohen  0:04  
and I'm Laurie Cohen from the Beagle Alliance in Manitoba, Canada, 

Chelsey Marino  0:08  
and I'm Chelsea Marino from Keeper and Kin in Charlotte, North Carolina, and this is Dogs Beyond the Lab.

John Ramer  0:18  
Hey, everybody! Welcome back to Dogs beyond the lab. Joining us today is Alice and Dima, who have adopted Kane from Kindness Ranch about three years ago, as of the recording of this episode. And they cornered me at a public event at the Denver Law School and explained to me how much Kane had changed their life. And I said that they have to come on the podcast. So everybody, welcome Alice and Dima to the show.

Chelsey Marino  0:46  
Yeah, welcome Dima and Kane.

Lori Cohen  0:49  
Time, yeah, and Kane. We can't see things, but he's beside you. We know he's beside you. Yeah,

Alice  0:57  
yeah.

John Ramer  0:58  
So three years ago, you started this journey. How did how did all of this begin for you, and what made you want to come up to Kindness Ranch and meet our dogs?

Alice  1:09  
Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that because I think it was really at me that that made this happen. But you've certainly fallen in love with Kane. I always grew up with beagles and just always fell in love with them. I loved how sweet they are. Their demeanor-they're just so quirky too. So when I was in college, I found out about beagles being tested on in research. I at that time I didn't know the extent of what they were being used for, but did kind of find out a little bit about it through Beagle Freedom Project and their website, and so I knew just having beagles myself, I always wanted to get a former research beagle. Again, I didn't really know what that entailed or what that would look like, but I was very interested. So it was always in the back of my mind, and then once we were kind of ready to get a dog, it was the right time in our life. We were thinking about it more and found Kindness Ranch through the Colorado Beagle Rescue because that's where we had gotten a lot of my beagles growing up in through the Colorado Beagle Rescue, and they had I think they reference Kindness Ranch on their website as like a part sister partnership, or you know, if you're interested in other beagles beyond Colorado Beagles, you can go there. So I did some research and and found Kindness Ranch and put in an application, and then was told that there were 400 plus people ahead of us. Oh gosh! And I, because this was right around early 2023, and so there was a lot of just publicity around the Invigo Beagles, and I think there was definitely a backlog of adopting Beagles from Kindness Ranch at that point. But the adoption coordinator reached out to us. I think we were exchanging messages over Instagram or email. I can't remember, on saying that there was a promotion going on with some senior beagles, and I think I had also reached out saying I was really interested in a lemon beagle specifically. I really wanted a lemon beagle. I just thought they were so cute and so unique, and there was this senior adoption promotion going on where I think you all had gotten like 20 or 30 senior boys. It was a lot of senior boys, and I think most of them had been adopted except for four, and Kane was one of them. So I was scrolling through the Instagram posts and saw Kane, and I was like, "We have to go get him. They said, "If we do the adoption promotion, we can kind of get ahead in the line. And and I think you were doing like, yeah, some that promotion for the senior Beagles. So it was a quick turnaround. I think once we had made that decision, we were going to get one of the seniors, and so I think the next day after we were kind of exchanging the notes, we went up there.

Dima  4:08  
It's within a couple of days of making that decision to go up and get Kane. Yeah,

Lori Cohen  4:14  
how did you decide, Dima? Were you just like, okay, I better do this because Alice is all over it, or

Dima  4:22  
so yeah. So for some context, there. So I didn't grow up with dogs or pets, so I was definitely a little bit nervous. Just you know, one having a pet for the first time, but let alone you know a former research animal, and kind of what challenges that could entail. That being said, though, I had, you know, we had been dating for a while. I had been around Alice's parents' beagles for quite some time then, and I had grown to just, you know, love that breed and love her family's beagles so much. So I knew having a beagle would be a great fit just for me, and knowing. That I just love that that breed. So it was a yeah, it was a mix of kind of like an excited nervousness, not knowing what yeah, knowing what to expect fully, but also being excited. You know, knowing that you know how much I loved beagles from just your experience. You know, being around your family's beagles. So yeah.

Chelsey Marino  5:22  
Did you have any expectation either from you know hearing about Kane from Kindness or any research you had done about Research Beagles? Did you have any sort of expectation of what things may look like or what you were in for, or were you just kind of like, hey, we want to do this, we're prepared, we're kind of going in blind, and hopefully getting you know going to get through it.

Alice  5:45  
I think we had done enough research to kind of know what to expect, but again, like I think it wasn't till we walked out with Kane that we were like, okay, this is going to be a little different than maybe we had thought. Like I had read the stories of you know how anxious they these former research beagles were or are, especially with some of the in Beagle stories. And then also had read like you know they can't really might not be able to walk on a leash. They've never really been walking on sidewalks before things like that. But I do remember when we got there and Kane came running out into the office area where we were doing the adoption, and he immediately peed on the desk, and I was like, I asked, "Is that normal? Because I just had never experienced dog, like especially a senior dog too, just not really being potty trained, and so it was like in that moment too. I realized, oh, this is going to be a little different, but we're excited about it. And it was almost like having a puppy in the beginning. Like we had done a lot of potty training with him. Like we we had treats every walk, and and so when he would go out and go to the bathroom, we would always give him a treat to reinforce him, and I think it was after the fact we had done some more research of like how to get him trained and potty trained.

Dima  7:10  
I think that was my like the one thing that I didn't expect the most was how how puppy like he was when we first got him. I think knowing he was a senior going into it, you know, I thought, you know, I just didn't expect that. But you know, after learning more about sort of the trauma they experienced, and just you know, certainly for me, a lot of Alice, I knew a lot through Alice, but we certainly both learned a lot more of kind of the horrors of what goes on in research testing with beagles, kind of after the fact. So, yeah, I think when we first got him, he was very much like a puppy. It's an interesting

John Ramer  7:51  
disconnect, isn't it? Because it is the the people that care for them in the research facilities, to them, they behave like a normal research animal, and then when they get out of research for people that are used to being around what we consider a traditional normal dog, we look at it as being like a nine-year-old puppy that has to has to learn everything, and that's that's where a lot of the challenges start for the adopters for sure.

Lori Cohen  8:23  
The challenge too that not only are they puppy like, but you know, I find myself explaining to potential fosters and adopters that they're not just puppy like, but puppies, as we know, are the most beautiful, outgoing, extroverted little creatures in the world who just don't know anything, but these guys are puppy-like in that they don't know anything, but also they're scared to know things, and that itself is its own challenge. I'm just curious. I know it's been three years, you guys, but do you recall what for for you guys personally and for Kane, what was the biggest challenge in the beginning that you weren't expecting? Maybe that first week or first couple of weeks,

Alice  9:10  
when he and he still can get like this. When he's anxious in public, it can be really challenging. Just from like we get kind of scared that he is gonna like run, like especially if he's on his leash or something, and he hears like a loud noise or thunder, he can get really anxious and just kind of run off. I think that's been the biggest challenge because he can get pretty scared by like loud noises, and he's definitely gotten a lot better over the years, but it still can happen. So that's just from like, I think our standpoint we can get scared. Like we don't want him to hurt himself or like run off, and and that's never happened. We have a really good leash for him and a good harness.

Lori Cohen  9:52  
Yeah, yeah.

Alice  9:53  
But I think that that's

Dima  9:55  
I would say yeah the biggest challenge in the beginning and even to the. Day has just been like managing his overall anxiety.

Lori Cohen  10:04  
Yeah,

Dima  10:04  
that's just been you know the most noticeable thing that has definitely gotten better. And I think in the beginning it was like every noise was new to him, so he would turn his head and be so sensitive to just the slightest sound or movement, because it was all new, and certainly he's gotten a lot more relaxed and used to a lot of those noises. But even still, like he'll hear a garbage truck, or yeah, right

Alice  10:33  
before this, he heard a garbage truck outside his head up. It

Dima  10:36  
can be the slightest, you know, it's those kind of deep bass sort of frequencies or noises that he can like. I almost have a hard time hearing, but he can just pick up on those, and and it really startles him and kind of brings that anxiety out. So, yeah, I think the biggest challenge, even to this day, and probably you know forever, that we have him is just managing his anxiety.

Alice  10:59  
And someone will be in public too, and he'll get a little anxious by something. And some people will come up to us and say, "Oh, he's so cute. He's nervous. And I try to like say,

Chelsey Marino  11:11  
"Yeah, yeah, nervous is the tip tip of what's wrong. Yeah, yeah. Like

Alice  11:17  
I don't. There's

Chelsey Marino  11:17  
a lot more. A

Alice  11:18  
lot of people, and sometimes it's a good education session. We start telling people, yeah,

Lori Cohen  11:23  
for sure.

Alice  11:24  
But I think a lot of people don't have maybe never seen that type of anxiousness in animal, and especially like a companion animal or a dog. And so sometimes the reactions are are interesting. Or if he is his tails tucked, people will always like kind of comment on that, but I think overall, like he's he's improved so much going out in public, and he can kind of go anywhere with us now. That's

John Ramer  11:53  
amazing.

Alice  11:54  
Yeah, it is.

Dima  11:56  
His transformation has been unbelievable. I would say, you know, it took a good year and a half to two years to really start to see you know Kane being truly himself and very beagle-like and coming out of a shell. And yeah, now it's you know he was very scared of people. That was really distinct right away. Something to mention is like he was pretty terrified of you know just anyone approaching him. He always loved other dogs. He would run up straight to dogs. His tail would go up and start wagging, and he'd be really nervous around people. Understandably, not only is he not nervous, but he actively now says hi to people.

Lori Cohen  12:37  
That's great. Both might

Dima  12:40  
go up and sniff them. So that's just been amazing to see.

Lori Cohen  12:43  
I love how you guys mention the two years because I frequently, obviously, speak with fosters regularly throughout the the process. And at the Beagle Alliance, we do a foster first because they don't get an opportunity to choose the dog or see the dog beforehand, so we like to make sure it's a match. and And so, you know, it'll be two or three weeks in, and you know, I'll get these comments or these questions about how well they're still anxious. When do you think that's going to end? And I have to remind them. And and of course people don't know because these dogs are so very different. But I always have to remind them. Well, the dog's been in the lab for many years, and it's only a couple of weeks. And so I love that you guys are mentioning that it's a progression, even still, like two years in and three years in. And obviously, you're very patient, and everyone who has a former research dog pretty much learns patience pretty quickly, and knows that that's a big part of it. But like, I love the transition and the progression. What was your favorite milestone?

Alice  13:56  
There's so there's so many. We wrote down a couple. We wrote down

Dima  14:01  
long lists preparing.

Alice  14:03  
Yeah, because again, like it, there's been a lot of milestones over the years. But I think one of the funniest ones about two weeks after we adopted him, he first when we would make dinner, lunch, food. You know, he wasn't around us sniffing the food. He just would sit on the couch or like our bed in in the bedroom and like just stay there. And I was like, this is not very beagle like. Usually they're they're in the kitchen with us. In like about two weeks after we had adopted him, he smelled I think chicken cooking, and he came running out. And he then stood on his paws to try to get some of the chicken on the counter, and then I mean, since then he's just he's always cooking food with us. Yeah,

Dima  14:48  
I think seeing him discover his sense of smell and nose was really really fun to watch, and him just getting yeah more comfortable just around. Us each and every day. Yeah.

John Ramer  15:02  
So I am dying to know, and this is going to lead into Chelsea because I know that she has a question, and for the people, I have a

Chelsey Marino  15:09  
lot of questions. I know you do. No, it's okay.

John Ramer  15:13  
And for the people that are listening only, Allison Deemer is sitting in front of this beautiful staircase behind them, and I'm wondering how much of a challenge that staircase was with Kane, and if you have seen Chelsea's videos on working with dogs, teaching them how to use steps.

Alice  15:33  
That's a really. We were actually just talking about that and saying, should we mention him learning how to use stairs? Because I don't remember him struggling too much. I think he he was able to figure them out pretty easily. He does come down them kind of funny, even still to this day. Like two leg, like two legs at a time. Yeah, not your normal

Dima  15:56  
one. You know, one step, two step. It's like a bunny hop down each step. Yeah, it's really cute.

Alice  16:02  
But I do like I do even to this day. Will like at nighttime he'll get kind of tired and he doesn't want to go up the stairs, so we'll carry him on. Ages even more like that will just continue to be something we we will work on with him. Some he's mastered

Lori Cohen  16:19  
the BeagleCon, Obviously,

Alice  16:21  
yeah, but yeah, I don't. I think one thing we were kind of reflecting on as we were putting together some thoughts for this was he is a really fast learner, and that was that has just made this whole experience so fun to watch because you know it might take him like a little bit of time to learn something, and then once he gets it, he he knows how to

Dima  16:47  
do it. And

Alice  16:47  
even just like walking now, like we have no problems on our walks really anymore, unless like he hears loud noises. He can hike anything. Like he's really good on his leash. So yeah, I don't remember the the stairs being an issue.

Dima  17:03  
Yeah, I think he just didn't understand the concept of them. So you know, it wasn't a an instinctive, you know, sort of mode that you know you see other dogs being able to just oh go up no problem. It was very like pausing, not like almost like it was a barrier. He didn't, you know. It's like he didn't know that it was something he could walk up. So yeah, I think it was just slowly trying to pull him up there and teach him one step at a time to get up. So it, yeah, it was definitely you could tell it was a completely new concept. But like Al said, he learns things so fast. Isn't it

Chelsey Marino  17:42  
crazy to see these research beagles do these things that are normal for a normal dog that we don't realize at some point this dog has been you know taught this or they have done this like walking on a leash or going up the stairs or you know whatever that kind of comes naturally to a puppy wherever that puppy comes from, but it's it's kind of crazy to see a research beagle, especially a senior research beagle, come out and not know how to do these things that were like, oh, you. I mean, you shouldn't know how to do that, but that's kind of I didn't think that that would be a thing, right? Because a normal dog just kind of like does it, or they just figure it out pretty quickly. Yeah,

Alice  18:23  
and that's like where I think we get a lot of the comments, and we can educate people. Like a lot of people, like, oh, he's a beagle. Does he how? Like a normal beagle, normal beagle, or like does he sniff rabbits and chase rabbits? And like those are still things that we haven't really seen from him. He doesn't have an interest in like chasing rabbits. He likes to sniff out dead things. So like he's sniffing out like a dead snake and dead dead animal. If it's dead, he'll find

Dima  18:53  
it. But yeah, any live squirrel or rabbit. I mean, it just could care less. So yeah, it's been interesting to see, yeah. It's very, yeah, just very kind of different tendencies that you'd expect from you know normal dog or just beagle in general. But I, I think he is learning like a lot of those. Like another thing that's been fun to see is a lot of those typical beagle traits we have seen come out of him over time. I remember, like another milestone was when the first time we heard him bark or howl. He has a really soft howl, like he's a very quiet beagle. He rarely makes a noise, but he'll do this cute howl sometimes. And the first time hearing that was felt like a true milestone. Like he was able to speak, encouraged it,

Alice  19:42  
encouraged it. Of course. Oh yeah. We

Lori Cohen  19:48  
all howl with our dogs. Let's all just admit that right now. Yeah. In the open. Yeah. Guilty as charged. Yeah. Yeah.

Chelsey Marino  19:58  
I have. I have some things. Say about a couple of different things that you have said. Firstly, is not a question, but it's more of a statement that I think is is cool that you noticed, and I want other listeners to notice that, which is when dogs or people or you know any other being is under chronic stress or traumatized or whatever you want to call it, one of the survival mechanisms is just kind of becoming small and quiet and unnoticeable because their nervous system is starting to realize that being visible or making choices is risky. So something really cool to notice, which you guys did, is when they start to inconvenience you, or when they start to ask for things, or you know, in his case, like come and sniff for food, or you know, affection, or access to other rooms, or something like that, it means that they're feeling like the outcome of that possibility can be changed and can be positive because a lot of the their life doesn't really matter what's going on because who cares? It's not going to change anyway. So when you see dogs start to get hopeful almost or or beg for food or you know get excited to go on a walk like that is so good for their nervous system because it means that they have hope that things are going to be good in the future. So I think that's cool. And then the second thing I wanted to note, which does come with a question in there, is a lot of people think that trauma, if you want to call it trauma, it shows up day to day because you remember what happened to you in the past. But it's really how your brain is interpreting what's happening in the present. So your brain isn't passively just observing the world like it is for us day to day. What's happening is it's constantly trying to predict what's going to happen, and that prediction is mostly like things are dangerous versus a normal brain is things are safe until proven dangerous. So, for example, if someone were to drop something, somebody who has a brain that's been under chronic stress or chronic trauma is going to assume that noise is bad and scary, whereas a normal brain would not. They would be like, "Hmm, what the heck was that noise? So, that being said, the more that happens, and the more that you see that in your dog, it becomes part of their personality almost, where their brain is just constantly scanning for danger or they're shut down a lot. So, did you see him, or when did you see him start to come out of that? And you felt like maybe those things aren't his personality. Maybe these things are now his personality. Like you were meeting the real him because he was starting to feel safer and more secure with himself, and not constantly like assessing threat.

Dima  23:13  
Yeah, I I think what initially stands out to me is kind of noticing how he would almost try to communicate with us more, so almost, you know, feeling comfortable enough to, you know, not be stressed or have anxiety of his current situation, but, you know, actually try to speak for himself and want something and ask something from us. So, like, you know, him following us, or you know, begging for treats or food, or I remember the first time he kind of learned to tell us, like, oh, I need to go, you know, potty outside, you know, standing by the stairs and by the door. So just I think seeing kind of that communication, yeah, and it's a very like it's a very quiet with Kane. It's a very sort of subtle, quiet communication. He looks at us in the eye. It's very unique. It's not a begging, barking, you know, for our attention. It's a very kind of subtle, quiet, you know, almost like a respect there, even though he does not need to ask for our permission or anything like that, but I think that was when I could tell sort of maybe a switch had flipped a little bit in his brain. He wasn't fearing, you know, constantly fearing the unknown and in of the expectations, you know, around what what had been giving him anxiety, but you know, starting to like ask for, you know, things that he liked in his life now.

Matt Cundill  24:49  
Yeah,

Alice  24:49  
yeah, I think for with us too, he was really attached to us from the beginning.

Dima  24:54  
Yeah,

Alice  24:54  
which has been, I think, really, we're really lucky, and really, it's just been. So interesting to see because even the first night he slept in our bed. The first night we had we adopted him. Oh wow! And yeah, like he was just like this is my bed too. He slept with

Dima  25:11  
us every day since he's been unbelievable. And

Alice  25:15  
and pretty soon after he was pretty he was like my Velcro. Like he would just follow me everywhere, but he was really attached to us just from the beginning. I think, as Damas said, like over time, we've kind of learned his communication style and and seen his true personality come out. Like, just I think he's really funny and he has a lot of really funny traits, and even like learning from we've seen him like learn from other dogs too. So like when we first first couple months of walking, you know, he never grabbed a stick or rolled. But then over time, as we've like walked with other dogs or he's seen other dogs, he starts rolling in the grass, or now we can't walk without him trying to pick up a stick, which he learns that from one of his dog friends.

Dima  26:05  
Yeah.

Alice  26:05  
Um, and then yeah, I just I think it's been just really interesting to see who he learns from because I think he learns from both us and like other dogs around him. Um, but he he almost sometimes acts like a person, and I think he learns that from us because he'll give us like hugs in the morning. Like he'll sit on his two legs and kind of give us every single morning. He gives us hugs. That's kind of what I was trying to

Dima  26:33  
get at with the communication aspect. Yeah, like other human being we're conversating with. Like it's it's very interesting to yeah see his progression in that manner is yeah it's almost like he's you know our kid you know our son yeah

Chelsey Marino  26:49  
yeah yeah I mean that's trust and that's you know something that is is huge and we had Angelique was one of our guests on a little while back, and she noticed that with her dog too. That one switch was like he asked me for something. Like he asked me, and you know he knows he can ask me, and he's hopeful that he's going to get it. So I think that's that's so cool when I hear the dogs are doing that.

Lori Cohen  27:16  
Beagles are not the easiest breed of dog for a a let me say you know quote unquote a regular beagle and regulated beagle is not always the easiest breed for somebody who's never grown up with dogs, let alone grown up with beagles. That's that's I mean if somebody applies to the Beagle Alliance, and I see that they have already had beagles. That's like half my education problem done for me. So I'm just curious, like when you met Alice's family beagle families, Beagle and Beagles, what was it about the Beagle breed? Because you've taken on a lot for someone who has not ever grown up and lived with with like companions, yeah, yeah. Let alone a beagle, let alone a former research beagle.

Chelsey Marino  28:14  
As as you guys were dating, yeah, I was just gonna say you were dating, right? You weren't even married. Yeah, this,

Lori Cohen  28:19  
yeah, exactly. This is a big testament to you, Alice. Like you changed this man's life. Like, yeah.

Dima  28:27  
I mean, no. Kane has changed both of our lives, but certainly my life has really changed, definitely for the better. And it's been such a such a good journey with just having Kane. But yeah, I mean, that's kind of like I mentioned in the beginning. Like that was something I was genuinely scared and nervous about because you know you know Alice's beagles were you know they weren't my responsibility ultimately. Right,

Lori Cohen  28:53  
right.

Dima  28:53  
You know I would come over. They would plop on my lap. They were so just you know almost like stuffed animals. They were really going, so it was easy to fall in love with them. It wasn't a lot of you know. It didn't take a lot of work. I didn't. I didn't have to see the challenges with her family's beagles. But but yeah, I know like getting Kane. I knew was going to be some level of responsibility and a lot of work, and that that was really scary, honestly, for me. I'd like to think that Kane, as much as we've changed Kane's life, he certainly has changed mine in really similar ways. I would say, like, not to get too open, but like, I have struggled a lot with anxiety, and I think having Kane, in some ways, made that better. Like it was something almost I could relate to him on, and I learned, you know, like a lot of other Beagle owners, I learned so much patience having him, and yeah, just felt like things that used to bother me or annoyances I had. Like you know, don't matter as much having Kane in my life. You know, it's it's like he taught me a lot of patience. You know, really what matters most in life, and I think he's taught me like a lot of life lessons and has gotten me in much better routines as well. And just just overall, like I feel like has brought more stability to my life, to our relationship. There's, there of course, there's challenges. There's times when, you know, he would have accidents in the house. You know, sometimes multiple times during the day, and it was in the, you know, in the middle of the night, and that was stressful for me. Just having patience to not get mad, you know. Clean it up, you know. Have that understanding with him, and you know, be calm in that situation. So that's something I've, you know, had to learn and get better at. But it's really changed me, and it's yeah, I've learned so much from having him, and it's it's really given me a lot of taught me a lot, you know, just just about myself and personally having him. So I think, yeah, it was it was scary in the beginning, but it's the best decision we've ever made by far.

Lori Cohen  31:12  
Oh, I love that. Do you want another one? Thoughtful. You want another five?

Alice  31:18  
Please let me know. I love the lemon beagles. I do too.

Lori Cohen  31:26  
I like they're adorable. They are. I think that is so beautifully said, and I think you both are so thoughtful in just your responses and so articulate. And I, we do hear this a lot that people with anxiety and PTSD who see that in the dog and and know that they've struggled with that, they'll come back and say, you know, I have become less less anxious because I know what that dog went through, and if that dog can be here right now, taking life on, I can do it too.

Dima  32:07  
That's exactly it. Yeah, I always try to remind myself, no matter what I'm feeling in the moment, it's nothing compared to what Kane went through.

Lori Cohen  32:14  
Yeah, yeah, and

Dima  32:16  
that's just constant reminder that has really helped. So I think that's so true. What you said.

Matt Cundill  32:28  
And now, dogs beyond the lab continues.

John Ramer  32:33  
Dima, tell me about your shirt.

Lori Cohen  32:36  
I was thinking the same.

Dima  32:40  
Beagle Freedom Project. You're

Alice  32:42  
wearing one that says "Save the Beagle. Yes, one side says "End animal, end animal testing with a snoop. With Snoop, love it.

John Ramer  32:50  
Did you guys see yourself, I guess, in advocacy role before Kane, or was this something that you discovered after adopting him?

Alice  33:00  
That's what's really interesting. I was reflecting on that a little bit this morning too. Is just thinking about all the opportunities we've had having Kane, like, and and being an advocate. Even just small everyday conversations with strangers, we can kind of share his story and what's going on. And of course, usually the responses-that's still a thing. Like beagles or dogs are being tested, and and always why beagles. And so I feel like we kind of have our responses now on all of that. But it's it's been really-I did not expect that amount of just advocacy or education having Kane, and also the opportunities like being on this podcast is really exciting. But then also, like earlier in the spring, when we got to be at Barnes and Noble for Melanie's book, which I can see was right behind.

Chelsey Marino  33:56  
Yeah, we just talked to Melanie. We

Lori Cohen  33:58  
did. Yeah,

Chelsey Marino  33:59  
yeah. I was just gonna say, if you haven't read her book, you should

Alice  34:02  
have read it, and we have the copy too. It's it's definitely one of those things. I think reading the book is it's. I'm really glad the book is out there. It is really hard. I think reading just being like Kane's mom and exactly really reading those, but I do think like she does a really good job balancing out some of the really hard stories with fun stories with her own beagle and and talking through it. And I feel like I can relate a lot because it's like a lot of stories with her and her beagle. And I think some of those moments I've had with just me and Kane when we're like on a hike, just us two together, or even just driving. It's like been some of the best moments, even when it's just me and Kane. And like, I feel like he's just like a friend to have. Yeah, and yeah, but I think that that's been a really fun, unique opportunity is being. Able to be in more of an advocate role, it's always something that, like, I wish that I could do more of and have more time. But I think even just thinking about everyday conversations, and we've we've educated a lot of people about like when they ask where we got Kane, and we tell them about Kindness Ranch, and you know, I just hope even if it's like a couple people learn or might be interested in getting a former research beagle or even just learning about it, is really impactful.

Chelsey Marino  35:33  
Absolutely. To

Dima  35:34  
add on to that too, I'll say that you know not only have we've become more aware of you know just beagle testing and beagle you know animal rights related to beagles, but just in general, I think we've been more conscious of just animal rights. Period. Like I think one big habit for me certainly, but both of us is we've stopped eating more meat just naturally. It's just harder to just knowing Kane's story and learning more about kind of the advocacy side of things and just you know animal abuse in general. So that's that's one interesting you know kind of habit that has kind of yeah that we've sort of gotten into after Kane is just you know we still eat some meat but like we definitely try to choose vegan or you know or vegetarian when we can. So yeah, I think it's amazing to

John Ramer  36:29  
have a compassionate lifestyle, and I think one of the things, and this is only my opinion, and I I am positive I will catch hell in a comment section for saying this, but you you don't have to be full on vegan to make a difference, and just just cutting back on meat, just being aware and making conscious choices to be more compassionate. And Alice, to touch a little bit on what you said. Somebody all those years ago just by happenstance told Melanie Kaplan about former research beagles, and she fostered one, just kind of on a whim, and ultimately wrote a book that has touched 1000s of people's lives. So those those one-off conversations and educational teaching moments that you can have with anybody, you never know where any of that is going to lead. And you know the the fact that that you're you're open to to being a voice for the animals is just it's a privilege that that we're all, I think, really lucky to share.

Chelsey Marino  37:47  
I think that's beautiful. It was the same for me. I mean, this is my life's work now, and it started with somebody bringing this up to me, somebody telling me in a conversation that this exists, and it's-it's changed my life too, so keep having those conversations. I think that's the biggest thing that people can do. Yeah,

Lori Cohen  38:05  
and and it's one person at a time, really, and you never know where that person is going to take it. And I agree with you, John. So I'm going to back you up on what we're both going to take flak for. Is that it's not about it's it's not about whether you're vegan or vegetarian or not or this or that or labeled anyway. It's just a matter of consciousness, and I think that you know you don't know what you don't know, and so once you're conscious of it, whatever choices you make that is going to do less harm to animals is is a great choice, and yeah, and I think that that looks different for everybody, and that's okay. But as long as there's a consciousness there, and it's true because I was a graphic artist and worked in jail for 10 years, and right you worked

Chelsey Marino  38:58  
in a jail. You in a jail while you were in jail. You weren't a graphic artist while you were a right. I worked in. Let's just clarify. I was employed

Lori Cohen  39:06  
by the Department of Justice to work in jail. We'll clarify that so that we don't get more comments about whatever. Anyway, but honestly, I had a beagle walk into my life. The the guy behind me that you can see his little snout there, and that was probably in 2009 or something. And I had no idea what to do with a beagle because I didn't know anything about beagles, and this little dog was climbing up on everything and escaping my yard and whatever. But it was just him coming into my life, not as a former research beagle, just a beagle that I found out that beagles were tested on, and I started volunteering and then working for an organization in the United States, and now here I am with the outright privilege to work with John and Chelsea every day. And to meet people like you guys, who are really the heroes of the story, because there'd be no-I mean, we couldn't get dogs out of the lab if people didn't want to work with them and have that patience and and love them the way you guys clearly love Kane. And I, I think that yeah, I think it it starts somewhere for everyone, and it's a pretty pretty big honor.

John Ramer  40:28  
And it's a bonus that you love the lemon beagles. Yeah, it is. I'm going to say that there's there's a number of facilities that I've worked with in the past that discard the lemon beagles because they don't consider them pure enough, which is ridiculous. You know, look at that boy laying on your couch.

Chelsey Marino  40:47  
I think lemon beagles have the softest little ears and just the sweetest little personalities. So sweet. I I love how I love kind of the pinkish. I'm a freak

Lori Cohen  41:00  
on the snow, the pinkish kind of snow is so adorbs. Yeah, so cute.

Dima  41:05  
There's no pigmentation, so all his skin is all pink.

Lori Cohen  41:08  
Yes, he has these

Dima  41:09  
brown freckles kind of on his butt.

Alice  41:12  
He has like it's so

Matt Cundill  41:13  
cute. Yeah, his brown

Alice  41:16  
freckles everywhere we can see. Yeah, I I

Lori Cohen  41:18  
love how we all notice the little things on on animals, like you know, I would miss some like welt on my best friend's face. But if you see a little freckle on my dog, I'll like know what's going on.

John Ramer  41:32  
So, what's next for you guys?

Alice  41:36  
Yeah, I think good good question. I I think we we've been talking about for sure getting Kane a sibling, I definitely will be with from Kindness Rich. So we're we're always on the lookout, John. So Deema mentioned Kane loves other dogs, and he's he is really really social. I do. We have found. I think he does. He would maybe do better with a girl assistant. That's most of them. That's most. That's

Chelsey Marino  42:06  
most of the time they prefer opposites. Yeah,

Alice  42:09  
yeah, yeah. Just I would

Chelsey Marino  42:10  
urge people don't do female female. That will.

Lori Cohen  42:12  
I'm with. I have two females, and it's a battle. If you

Chelsey Marino  42:16  
can prevent female, female is the last choice. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alice  42:20  
But yeah. So both my brothers have dogs, not beagles, but other dogs, and and when all three of them are together, it can just get a lot, a lot of just like stealing toys and peeing on things each other's sparks, and so I I think overall he seems like he really would like, and I think he would like another a sibling, just it would keep him company. Because one thing too that we've noticed over time is we are so lucky we can bring in most places and he can do fine. But over time, he actually seems like he's wanted to stay home more, and he'll kind of like the communication Dima was talking about earlier. Is we can kind of read that communication when he's just like chilling on the couch and doesn't really want to get up or doesn't really want to follow us. We're like, okay, we'll leave him here, and we don't need to bring him out to the store or like you know everywhere we're kind of would be used to bringing him. And one thing too, we didn't really talk about this too much. We did. We have actually worked with a behavioral dog anxiety therapist just in the beginning, right after we did move houses, and so this house we're in, we've been in for about two years, and we're not going to move again. But Kane was really stressed out when we were moving. He actually had like the night we were moving, a or the night before he had I think a stress induced seizure. It was hard to tell what it was, but we did end up bringing him to the emergency vet, and they were like, "That's what we think happened. And then once we moved, he was it was almost like starting over with him. Like he was really anxious anytime we had left. It was almost even hard to like go to the mailbox and leave him. Like for about a month and a half, we we were we were really struggling. I think leaving him, but we kind of worked. It was a one time session. We got just a lot of good insights from that, and just again being able to like read their their behavior if they want to come with us, and they're kind of communicating that they want to come with us. We can bring them if they're kind of over time like communicating that they would rather just be on the couch sleeping, which is what he's doing now.

Lori Cohen  44:38  
Yeah.

Alice  44:39  
Oh,

Chelsey Marino  44:40  
yeah.

Alice  44:41  
And so I think that's been really interesting. That's why over time we've talked. Like it's probably the right time to start thinking about another dog in the couple months because he is just so comfortable being at home now, and and I think having a sibling would probably make his life a little bit more fun.

Lori Cohen  44:58  
Yeah,

John Ramer  44:59  
I know what guys. So John is ready.

Lori Cohen  45:00  
Yeah, exactly. Just so John is ready. This is this is my big question for you. Lemon,

Alice  45:10  
is

Lori Cohen  45:11  
it? Does it have to be a lemon beagle girl?

Alice  45:16  
That would be our ideal

Dima  45:18  
girl. John, you

Chelsey Marino  45:19  
just had some really cute senior lemon beagle females. I called them the Golden Girls. That's right. I'm sure you'll have more too.

Lori Cohen  45:27  
Oh my gosh, that's right.

Dima  45:28  
I think it needs to be a good fit for Kane. Like if Kane, it's you know if they get along well with Kane and Kane loves them, then you know that's all. You're

Chelsey Marino  45:40  
good. That's a better answer. Yeah. From a from my standpoint, as a PSA to to all dog people out there thinking about getting a second dog, especially when you have a senior dog, I would say don't get a puppy. Don't get younger than you know two years. Just thinking, and I think that it's cool that you you spoke to somebody in dog behavior before. And what's the coolest thing about you know talking to a dog trainer or somebody in dog behavior is they can help you kind of get inside your own dog's brain a little bit. And so why I say that is I'm in my 30s, and I don't want to hang out with a teenager every day, right? So imagine being someone who's older as a senior, just getting annoyed by a puppy all day long, and all day long when you're like, "Dude, I just want to sleep. Please leave me alone. We can play later. You know. So I tell people, I know it's cute to think the puppy is going to learn from the older dog, but try like an adult, a young adult is going to be, you know, a better choice, or another senior, of course. But it's I always kind of try to urge people: don't get a puppy, puppy with your senior, and make the last however many years of their life stressful.

Alice  46:58  
Yeah, and one thing too, why we kind of think now is the right time, or in the next couple months, maybe six months ish, would be because also we we really want Kane to be able to teach the sibling all the things he's learned, and so I think that's what's interesting. Like Chelsea, you mentioned a lot of people get puppies, so you know the puppy can kind of learn from the the adult dog, and I think we're kind of really interested in that. Just knowing that Kane is transformed and learned all these really cool things about being a dog, and it would be just I think so awesome to see him kind of teach that to another beagle that was used.

Chelsey Marino  47:39  
Well, because they're they're kind of like puppies anyway. When we when they come home, right? So it doesn't actually have to be a a puppy, but you know, having a dog who doesn't know how to dog, especially how to dog in your your household, you know, with a former research beagle that can be any age, really, and and cane can help them, and they they do learn really really well from each other. So he's going to be a great teacher.

Alice  48:05  
Yeah,

Dima  48:05  
yeah. If you can get him one coach.

Chelsey Marino  48:09  
Yeah. Then then he's he's like, this is how you nap. Exactly. This is my spot. That's where you stay with your nap. That's how you beg. Yeah. Yeah. All food.

Lori Cohen  48:21  
Then you guys can come back on the podcast and talk about that whole entire process, what that looks like. So

John Ramer  48:30  
one of my favorite things about this conversation so far, excuse me, is I'm sure you guys have seen it in our emails, but my email signature says that there's lots of people that talk with animals. Not many listen, though, and that's the problem. And you guys have consistently said throughout our conversation that how well you have listened to Cain and his needs, and when he was ready to engage, and when when he was ready to to try and influence the outcome of a situation, and I've got mad respect for that. Thank you very very much. It it just fills me with even more confidence that when you're ready for your third, fourth, and fifth beagle that you're automatically approved.

Chelsey Marino  49:25  
Absolutely, and you're letting him do it at his pace too. You know, you're not trying to mold him into who you thought he could be or who you want him to be. You're like, hey, dude, I hear you. This is your life, you know. And I just I love that because we go into this with some sort of idea of I want to go on, you know, hikes, or I want him to do this or that, and definitely doesn't happen that way with all dogs, and it definitely, definitely doesn't happen like that with research beagles. So yeah, I again to piggyback on what John said, I applaud you for listening to him and allowing him to be him.

Alice  49:59  
It's really good.

Dima  50:00  
Yeah, thanks for saying.

Lori Cohen  50:00  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are very thoughtful in your relationship with him. It's really quite from an outsider having never met you until now. It's really quite something to see, to be honest. Yeah,

Chelsey Marino  50:13  
Alice, do you feel like you have changed, or what has changed with you? Because you have had beagles before, you've had dogs before, and you did know, you know what to expect going into this. You did a lot of research. So, how do you feel like it's changed you personally, or how you think about dogs?

Alice  50:32  
Yeah, I do think overall, like just thinking about dogs, I definitely think about them differently. Like I recognize the anxiety or maybe PTSD that these dogs have, and I think both of us had never really seen an animal with that much anxiety and show that anxiety in that way. Like even to this day, when he is getting really anxious, he he actually has like learned to calm himself down and take deep breaths, which is really interesting to see. Like it's almost like a person calming themselves down, and so I think just kind of similar stuff to you. I've learned to be patient, and I think it's definitely taught me a lot of patience over time, and not to have too many expectations because I do think originally when you know when we got Kane, I was like, "Oh, I'd love to be able to like take our dog to the brewery or take our dog. Like especially in Colorado, where everyone is taking their dogs out everywhere. Yeah, and

Lori Cohen  51:37  
it's true. Yeah, and

Alice  51:39  
again, Kane can go many places. We do go like you know we've had reunions at breweries with Kindness Ranch, and Kane goes and he does just fine. But I do think over time, listening to him and we'll make the decision like oh maybe we don't bring him to this brewery tonight or this outside restaurant wherever we're going because he wants to just stay at home, and so I think that like the expectations have definitely changed because I we have learned to understand his needs more, and that he he might not always want to go where we're going. And I think again, just having not a lot of expectations is good because then you're not really set up for like any disappointment or anything. Like if your dog is a little different than maybe what you had thought in your head, and so I think again he's taught me a lot of that, and I think just taking that into other aspects of my life with work or with friends, just kind of maintaining expectations.

Lori Cohen  52:45  
You know, you guys. I just want to say this about you. It just struck me while I was listening to you, Alice. Is that you know we frequently hear, and and it is pretty much a fact that our dogs love us unconditionally, and you know even if we're having a terrible day, they're there for us. Or if we yell or get mad at something, even if it's not them, they're just always there to forget the past and be there for us. But I have to say, you guys are literally the epitome of unconditional love back at your dog for your dog.

Alice  53:17  
That's really nice. Without the wisdom,

Lori Cohen  53:19  
yeah, yeah, awesome. Thank you. I haven't

Alice  53:21  
even showed you my tattoo. Oh my gosh! That's fantastic. Exactly like that's

Chelsey Marino  53:30  
love. That amazing.

Lori Cohen  53:32  
I love that.

Chelsey Marino  53:34  
Love that. You know what? I love in the corner of your screen his little tiny tippy. Yes, little belly. I cannot stop looking at. I know. Oh my god! I just want to put my face in there. I know because those cute. I love it. So cute, and those

Lori Cohen  53:49  
are the perfect beagle feet. And yes, they seem to always do that. My poppy does that too, where she'll press up against like that, and her feet are against the couch. It's so cute. Ah, you tell. I'm imagining

Chelsey Marino  54:00  
myself just cuddled up there with his toes.

Dima  54:03  
On the verge of sleep barking right now, so

Alice  54:07  
that's one of the quirks he has. Is he sleep barks? He has a lot of funny quirks. Yeah, a

Dima  54:12  
lot of the quirks like we'll do, and he'll have different quirks with me compared to Alice. It's really interesting. Like he, I'll do. I I like to call them head rubs. So every morning, it's funny too. Like we usually have to wake him up every single morning. He will sleep in. I mean, as late as we haven't even

Lori Cohen  54:32  
tested how late he would sleep in. We

Dima  54:35  
generally have to wake him up, and I start each morning with he'll like tuck his head in my armpit, and he'll kind of nudge me to kind of do like the face or eye rub. So we have little routines like that every morning. He he'll also I'll do belly rubs with him. He'll get into a downward dog, and he'll kind of signal like I just need to like tickle his belly, and he'll get into a downward dog, and we'll stay. For minutes, as I rub his belly, and so it's just yeah, it's just been such like a nat natural. It's so easy to love Kane, like it just it it hasn't felt like work. Like any challenges we've had, it's just it yeah, it does. It feels easy to kind of work through them because there's just so much love there for Kane, and that that's something for me. Like I never thought I would be able to love another creature so much as as much as Kane. So he's taught me a lot of just compassion and empathy as well.

Alice  55:33  
I love hearing

Chelsey Marino  55:34  
that. Yeah, I love that. Well,

John Ramer  55:36  
you guys have a captive audience in the three of us, so I'm going to turn it over to you now. What questions do you guys have?

Alice  55:48  
Yeah, I think one thing we're thinking about is a lot of the different things we're talking about too is like expectations with research beagles or research dogs, research animals, and also just the beagle personality in general. So I think just something that would be interesting to hear from you all is like how to kind of debunk some of those maybe myths about beagles. Maybe some of it is true, but maybe you know I think a lot of times people will kind of come up to us and be like, oh, I had a beagle growing up. They were so they were the hardest breed to work with. Like you know, it's always like they bark a lot. Does yours bark a lot? And I think just kind of what would you tell listeners if maybe they are interested in a beagle and maybe scared to adopt a beagle, especially a former research beagle? How some of those maybe myths can be debunked.

John Ramer  56:46  
Just do it; it's fine. Moving on. Yeah,

Lori Cohen  56:50  
I actually have that conversation a lot. I see a lot of beagles abandoned because people think they're cute, and they are, and they're cute puppies, and I think the most important thing to say to anybody thinking about adopting a dog is to know your breed, and that's it. To me, I love the fact that my dogs are vocal. I think it's adorable. I'm in love with them when they howl, and but I live on 40 acres in the middle of nowhere, Canada, and so nobody's being bothered by my dogs howling. At least I haven't heard as such.

John Ramer  57:30  
Cute is not a breed,

Lori Cohen  57:32  
and cute is not a breed exactly. And the right size, yes, that's part of the characteristics. And and you want to you know have a dog that's manageable for you and your family, etc. But I think knowing your breed is important and accepting. I mean, I think you answered it yourself, quite frankly, Alice. Is that if you know your breed and then you don't have any expectations? I've had a lot of people who will start fostering and they'll say, "Well, this dog isn't acting like my other beagle. Well, no kidding. That that's like saying my kid isn't like their sister or brother. There, you know. So just know your breed, and then not have an expectation or place sort of an expectation on your dog that's going to set everyone up for disappointment, put extra pressure on that dog, and I'm probably going into it long winded. But let's face it, beagles are only hard for people who it's not a match for their personality. Beagles, I like to believe that we all, as beagle and hound people, are Crafty, adorable, smart. I like to think that we mirror each other, and that's how it has to work with your breed of dog.

Chelsey Marino  58:51  
Yeah,

Alice  58:52  
yeah.

Chelsey Marino  58:52  
I think what's interesting. I have you know this conversation a lot with my clients with with beagles, but also my other, you know, normal dog training clients too, is just what Lori said. Know your breed, and what's what's cool about beagles and hounds, which I personally love, is they're very instinctual breeds. Like a herding breed is an instinctual breed, or a guardian dog, like a Great Pyrenees, for example, these are very instinctual dogs. They were bred for a task, not the research task, but you know what they were originally bred for is is task training, right? And so that's so ingrained in their DNA. And something about a beagle or a hound in general is they think that they're not all the time, but a lot of the time they think that they're smarter than everyone because they're so instinctual that you know they're just they think they know what to do all of the time, right? So when we work with an instinctual breed, whether that be a hound or a herding breed or a garden. Breed or whatever it is, you have to work with their brains, right? You you can't fight, you know, their brains. You can't, you know, not that we would ever do this, but it's not a dog where you can be like it's this way and you do it this way, and if you don't do it this way, you're wrong because a hound is going to laugh at you and they're going to go get into trouble, right? And so you have to work with them. Yeah, exactly. So you have to work with the dog. And you know, I talked to someone yesterday who has a research beagle, and for her whole life she had corgis, and she's like, you know, corgis are their own thing, but this dog is different. You know, like a herding breed is very different than a hound, and I'm like, yeah, you know. So yeah, like Lori said, know your breed, but also that's where it could be, right? Like your beagle doesn't howl, your beagle doesn't do X, Y, Z, but there are a lot of research beagles who do. So you're not always going to get what you think you're going to get, but know what you could get exactly if you're getting a people. Yeah, be okay with you know helping them learn the way that they need to learn, not how you want to teach them. If you're teaching a kid who has dyslexia, you're going to teach that kid a little differently because their brains work a little bit differently. It's not better or worse. It's just different, and you just teach them differently.

Lori Cohen  1:01:22  
Yeah, and yet I think you have to have a sense of humor. I mean, beagles are like when you're a beagle person, you have to have a sense of humor. You cannot take yourself too seriously because they will laugh at you.

Chelsey Marino  1:01:34  
Yeah, they will. They won't take you serious. No, my

Lori Cohen  1:01:37  
eagle kept getting out of this dog run I had, and as long as you're, they are safe. You can laugh at it, right? So you know when things go different, you don't want them to be unsafe, of course. But that dog outsmarted me and kept getting out of that run. It's an eight foot run, and he would get out. And so finally, I thought to myself, somebody is going to think I'm crazy, but I perched myself in my kitchen sink. You guys, I sat in my kitchen sink to stare out the kitchen window for 45 minutes to watch to figure out how my beagle was getting out of this, and I am telling you that finally, I guess he thought, "Okay, mom's not around. I can do this again one more time. But I, me, I sat there in that sink, and

Chelsey Marino  1:02:29  
is this trouble?

Lori Cohen  1:02:31  
It's trouble. And he part of the run was four feet of it was chain link, and then the other had to be reinforced with wood because he kept getting like it was nonstop, but anyway, I finally figured it out, and he climbed into the little holes of the chain link, paw by paw by paw, and then up onto the wood. Like it was, and this is the thing because he was safe. I actually sat back and had just so much more respect for him. I was like, "This dog is so

Chelsey Marino  1:03:06  
smart,

Lori Cohen  1:03:07  
brilliant that I can't even be mad. Yeah. So you guys,

John Ramer  1:03:11  
I I have to interrupt just for a second and give a little bit of context at how much fun Lori's house must be because during yesterday's conversation, she was talking about drinking wine and reading Melanie's book in her sauna. And now drinking wine in the sauna, John. You added,

Lori Cohen  1:03:30  
you added that. Well, we added

John Ramer  1:03:32  
that by the end of the episode.

Lori Cohen  1:03:35  
Okay, but I'm I'm just imagining

John Ramer  1:03:37  
you and all of the weird places that you sit and observe and read in your house. Yeah, fair enough. Sitting in your sink, the only thing missing was Melanie's book.

Lori Cohen  1:03:47  
Yeah, exactly. And I didn't have a glass of wine for the record while I was sitting in the sink. Okay, John, just so you know.

Alice  1:03:54  
Well,

Matt Cundill  1:03:55  
thanks for listening to Dogs Beyond the Lab. For more, including comments, feedback, and ways to get in touch with our hosts, go to beyondthelab.dog.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:04:06  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.