Joe Bailey's Lessons from Presley

John Ramer  0:00  
I'm John Raymer from Kindness Ranch Animal Sanctuary in Wyoming,

Lori Cohen  0:04  
and I'm Laurie Cohen from the Beagle Alliance in Manitoba, Canada,

Chelsey Marino  0:08  
and I'm Chelsea Marino from Keeper and Kin in Charlotte, North Carolina, and this is Dogs Beyond the Lab. Today's guest is Joe. He's opened his life to two former research dogs, Presley and Carol, and Joe and I spoke a couple months ago, and we just thought he would be a great guest to bring on. So that being said, Joe, thank you for coming.

Joe Bailey  0:32  
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Hello. Nice to have you here, Joe. See you all.

Lori Cohen  0:36  
Thanks for being here. Thanks for

Joe Bailey  0:38  
having us.

Chelsey Marino  0:39  
Well, let's. It's me and

Joe Bailey  0:40  
Carol. It's the two of us. We're both here. Yes,

Chelsey Marino  0:42  
Joe and Carol are both here. She's here.

Joe Bailey  0:44  
She's rakish.

John Ramer  0:45  
Please make sure you watch the YouTube channel to see Carol.

Joe Bailey  0:49  
Yeah. By the way, she's never this cuddly, so this is like a rare moment. She's hamming it up for the camera right now. So thank you all for giving her a moment of screen time. She's

Chelsey Marino  0:57  
a star.

Joe Bailey  0:58  
She is.

Lori Cohen  0:58  
We encourage video podcasts. We love that,

Chelsey Marino  1:02  
Joe. Let's start at the beginning. Let's talk about Presley. I always like to have people tell us their life before getting involved with Research Beagles, and then of course the journey to get Presley and your life with him. So let's start there.

Joe Bailey  1:18  
Well, so I moved to Los Angeles in 2021. I had been in New York City for 14 years prior to that, and I was a firm believer in like no dogs in an apartment vibe. I mean, especially like beagles and dogs of a larger size, which is more my vibe of a dog. So I I had waited for me to have a more suburban, or in the case of LA, suburbanly urban lifestyle before considering adoption. So in 2021, I sold everything in New York City. I packed up a car and drove across the country high, rented a fully furnished house for the first six months that I was living there with a friend of mine, and you know did the whole did the whole move out of the apartment thing. I got the house, I got the car, so the only thing like left to do was get the dog. And I had grown up with beagles. We had two beagles growing up, Breezy and Chloe. I knew that I didn't necessarily want to go the breeder route because of the fact that beagles were tested on in laboratories. There was a dog that I that came up in on Pet Finder through Beagle Freedom Project. I had applied, did the entire interview, and they said, "Sorry, you're going to have to wait probably eight to 10 months before you get a dog. I was like, "Totally get it. And then two weeks later, they called and said, "Hey, just kidding. We have 18 dogs on their way from Oklahoma right now. Are you ready? And I was like, Yes, I am so ready. Okay, I was completely not ready, like across the board, not ready. Mainly because you know it was like at that time I was like, Oh, it's going to be like having a baby. I've got eight months to prepare bed and the the dog bowls and all the things. And then two weeks later they said, Just kidding, you're ready. We're ready for you to rock and roll. So here we go. So that was how I found my way to Presley. I would say my life before a dog in general, but specifically a rescue dog, I was very fast-paced in New York City. Like everything was very go go go, and it was very like go out and have a great time all night and and all of those fun things. Presley really slowed me down and like not in the like oh like I'm so sad way but in the way where I was I I found that with him I needed to be a lot more present. He and Carol came from the same laboratory and from the same from the same farm in Oklahoma, but they're like the tale of two very different dogs. Presley was fresh off of the farm; he didn't understand life in a home. He didn't understand life outside of the pen in which he was the field in which he was kept, and so I had to teach him everything from bathroom outside to walking downstairs to walking on a leash to learning also all of his triggers of like for him it was metal when his leash would wrap around a signpost and the metal would hit the metal he would get skittish and run so it really taught me to slow down and to be present in the moments especially with him to understand him better and then to also understand the differences between a dog that you get when they are a puppy, and then a dog that you also adopt when they're older and they've been through trauma. He was six and a half when I got him, and and and he ate so fast, and so I brought a trainer in to to work with me on how do we teach him to not eat so fast because obviously it was him and like 10 other dogs in the pen fighting for food right and so just really taking the time because there were so many things about him that were so different and had also been so ingrained for those first six and a half years that it was really important to just be there and. Be with him to understand all of the nuances of of having a rescue dog, specifically from a testing laboratory.

John Ramer  5:07  
Joe, you said that you didn't want to go through a breeder because you knew of animal testing and rescues. What was your first exposure to beagles being used in testing?

Joe Bailey  5:20  
I would say it probably wasn't beagles. I'm going to give Reese Witherspoon a giant shout out for me to be blonde too. Honestly, I like honestly like yeah like of course by the way now careless to go outside. But so I would say Legally Blonde Two is where I first was exposed to the fact that animals were tested on in that capacity. My background is working in the pharmaceutical industry, and you think a lot about mice and rabbits and and the animals that are mass produced in that setting for that for that type of testing. It had never occurred to me that it could be beagles, and then I don't even know honestly, John, how I stumbled upon it. But I was on the internet, and at one point, it actually may have been when I was first thinking about getting a getting a beagle when I was in New York and like toying with the idea, and that was where I had learned about beagles being the most like affable and the most moldable of the animals, and that's why they were the easiest to be tested on in a laboratory setting, which totally broke my heart, having been raised with them, and so that was what really drew me to wanting to to rescue.

Lori Cohen  6:28  
Clearly, we know that having a former research beagle dog is far different. There's challenges that are that don't come up when even with other types of rescue dogs. Yes, although I find myself in the position of having fosters and adopters who end up, they adopt a former research beagle. That beagle is a companion to their, I guess, alongside either another beagle or another dog that they have, who's usually older. When that dog passes, I find that they come back to us and they say, "Look, when we're ready, we're going to do this again. It strikes me that even though this is one of the most challenging dogs to work with, clearly we know that it's one of the most rewarding. So, was it a no-brainer for you? Were you going to get another dog out of research, or what? What did that path look like?

Joe Bailey  7:24  
Okay, sorry. This might be where I cry, so I'm going to apologize. So when I rescued Presley, he was, as I mentioned, six and a half in March of 2024. By the way, I took Presley with me everywhere. He was like the biggest. United Airlines loved him. I would get DMs after, like I would be on flights. Like there's a video of of a beagle, and I'll say this: Presley towards the end got a little rotund because he had lymphoma, so it causes them to you know swell in certain places. There's a video of a beagle running up into first class, and a flight attendant on United who found me through Presley's Instagram, was like, "Is this your dog? Like, he became very well known on United on United Airlines. So, thank you to United for having been so good with him. So, I traveled back and forth from LA to New York a lot for work, and so when I would come out to New York, we would go come down to the Philadelphia area, spend time with my family, and in 2024, right before my sister gave birth to her daughter, we were here, and Presley had a had a little bit of a cough. So I took him to my family mat here, and they said, "Oh, I think it's like an upper respiratory infection, but hey, there's one little lymph node on his back leg. Do you mind if we aspirate it? And I said, "Sure, of course. With his antibiotics, he couldn't fly back to LA, so I left him at my parents' house for the week. Went back to LA. A week later, as I was boarding the flight to come back and pick him up, the vet called and told me that it was lymphoma, and so I got him into University of Penn Vet here in Philadelphia, and then ultimately Mount Laurel Animal Hospital, who were godsends. And within 24 hours of his diagnosis, we were in the oncologist's office, and within 48, he was being treated for what ultimately ended up being B-cell lymphoma. I will always refer to Presley as the boy who brought me home because I was here when my niece was born, and that was not the original plan, and so we stayed here for 20 weeks for his treatment. He went to remission, and we went back to Los Angeles, and he relapsed. And so when he relapsed, we came back out here, and we started the treatment all over again. And it was a lot more aggressive the second time around. There were a lot of emergency visits to Mount Laurel Animal Hospital because of my travel. There were a lot of flights on that same day back to the animal hospital to see him because we had to have him admit it overnight. There were nights where he would be on oxygen. It just became untenable. And then on a Tuesday evening, we went for. Chemo, and on a Thursday morning, it was it was the end. And it took me a minute to just really like think about what I was going to do next. And I like to be completely honest, and this may sound a little bit selfish, Lori. At first, I was like, "This has been a really hard like six months, so I haven't been enough freedom. So I'm just gonna like take a second for myself.

Lori Cohen  10:28  
I don't think that's selfish, if I may say. I think that's just exhausting, and you need a moment to be honest. Yeah,

Joe Bailey  10:35  
it was. It was very. It was very exhausting. And listen, there was so many positives that came out of it, right? Like again, getting to be here for Olivia being born and all those things were just so great, and it has brought me closer to my family and the whole nine. So I emailed Beagle Beagle Freedom Project, and I got on the website just looking to see, and I had seen that they had Freedom Fields now, and which is in Nawada, Oklahoma, and you know Inspector Gadget over here putting two and two together. I mean, I gave Nancy Drew a run for her money, emailed and said, "Hey, what are the odds that this is where Presley came from? And you know, I received a very nice email back from the California staff that said, "Hey, we're two different staffs now. Send us the records we gave you, and then we'll go from there. So I did, and they said, "Hey, that's where he came from. So great, I would love to donate money in his memory. And they said, "Well, we actually have two dogs here that might be related to him. And then they sent me photos of Carol and Cookie. It was like a no-brainer because number one, Carol, who is currently like rubbing herself against the couch, and I'm like, "Now's the moment where I'm going to say like she's my redemption arc. In some ways, my goal was to always get Presley to 10, and we only made it to nine and a half, and that will always break my heart. And so Carol was really my redemption arc of another dog from that lab in Oklahoma. Yeah, you, Bubba, getting a second chance. Wow. So no, it was not in the original plan, but it is the plan now.

John Ramer  12:03  
What a good girl!

Joe Bailey  12:05  
Yeah,

Lori Cohen  12:06  
I'm gonna take that response and and have a even more profound question for you, which is: I'm a person I just love people who name their dogs after with human names. So there's a story behind Carol. That that's the profound question. There's a story behind Carol.

Joe Bailey  12:29  
So I have a question. How how transparent am I allowed to be on this podcast?

Chelsey Marino  12:34  
As much as you want, we can go anywhere. Let me

Joe Bailey  12:37  
tell you. Let me. Okay. So I'm I'm going to start with this, with with Presley. When I was first told that I was getting Presley, I received the phone call and the text message, and it said, "You're getting Jax. I was like, "Oh, okay, Jax is great. So I drove to Valley Village, thinking I was going to get a. Oh yeah, we're talking about you. Thinking I was going to get a dog named Jax, and then I roll up, and they're like, "Oh, Joseph, you have Presley, and I was like, "Oh, okay, great. I thought I was getting Jacks, but like that's totally fine. So I take him home, and like, by the way, my my my mom's father was like huge into like jazz and all of those things, and like he had a lot of Elvis Presley out. So I'm like, "This is great. This is super fitting. They had beagles growing up. My sister was like, "Oh, it's so fitting. And by the way, like he was so derpy that like it made sense for his name and blah blah blah. He he had so much energy after he because you know when you when you get them sometimes they are fully intact. And because I was fostering him fresh out of the laboratory, I had I was the I had to take him for his surgeries and all of those other fun things. That dog, first of all, they gave him a quaalude and then I put him in the other direction. Like he was like bouncing off walls. So I was in the ER three times with his sac re-ribbed open. It was a disaster. So the Beagle Freedom Project sent me a text message on a night where I will admit I had maybe or maybe not had some psilocybin and was like zoning out, and they were like just checking in on how Jack slash Presley is doing, and I was like, "Who are you? And like had a whole conversation, like "What is your name? and sat there being like, "Jax Jack Presley. Like we had a whole my friend, my friend. I was with my friends Todd and my friend Penny and we had a whole moment that night where we were like, "Who are you? and we kept practicing names. That said, I'm a I when I received the email, she already had the name Carol. Okay, and I mean, who could change a name that epic that now everyone is like, "How did you get the name Carol? I'm like, well, I'd like to thank Beagle Freedom Project for having given her that name. And now, when I look at other dogs to potentially adopt, I'm like, does the name go with Carol, or would I have to change it? Like, I just saw they posted a dog named Simon. I'm like, would Carol and Simon go together? Like, Carol and Peanut Butter, maybe not.

Chelsey Marino  14:57  
No, but like Carol. Carol and

Joe Bailey  15:00  
Simon might work together, right? But yeah, yeah. So I would love to say that I had something to do with it. I didn't. It was all Beagle Freedom Project and the team at Freedom Fields.

Lori Cohen  15:08  
Okay. Well, I'm not. I wasn't expecting that. Sorry.

John Ramer  15:13  
I'd be remiss if I didn't insist that you at least look at the Kindness Ranch website and see if there's any names that. All right. Bye. I will take a look. I will.

Joe Bailey  15:22  
We, as Carol and I, are talking about getting a second. So yeah, we're we're we're in we're in negotiations right now. She really she does really well in packs, so we're in negotiations on getting a second.

Lori Cohen  15:36  
Maybe John can just bring one.

John Ramer  15:38  
Well, we have 26 to choose from New York. John, let's

Joe Bailey  15:41  
let's talk about it. Let's talk about it after this. Sorry, her paws are like, look at her right now. She's like going crazy.

John Ramer  15:46  
It's epic. I love it.

Lori Cohen  15:49  
Yeah, John, just pop the dog on the way. She volunteers

John Ramer  15:51  
me for the best. I love it.

Joe Bailey  15:53  
I send me the send me the website, and I'll take a look.

Chelsey Marino  15:55  
Understanding or thinking that Carol and Presley are related, and then you're not really anticipating getting another dog, and you go and somehow find the dog who comes from the same place, potentially is biologically related. I would wonder that Carol feel like part now you have a part of Presley in a different version than you had because that would be prior to your life with Presley because you're still kind of going through grief right as this happens. A

Joe Bailey  16:32  
couple of notes on that. One is I am a firm believer in the woo woo and the juju, so I will admit that I did psychedelic breath work, and I talked to Presley, and I politely asked him to give me space for Carol and I to bond because it was very difficult at first when I first got I couple it it's it's an it's a great question in in the sense that like I did not necessarily grieve him the way that he probably deserved to be grieved. Also, noting that because obviously these dogs are up for adoption, I didn't want to lose the opportunity to have a dog that was potentially related to him and to like keep that connection going, and carry on what I like considered to be like my my failure for lack of a better term. I moved very quickly because I wasn't going to let her go somewhere else. Cookie, who is the other dog at Freedom Fields, who's now named Julian, he would not have worked out. He had night terrors, and they were worried that like being around children should they like startle him awake? Something you know, if something were to happen, but like to the point where like I still they post Beagle Freedom Project posted something. I was like, "Where's Cookie? Is Cookie okay? They were like, "Name Julie and rehomed. Calm down, crazy. But I but I move very fast because obviously people do want to adopt these animals, so I did move. I did move very quick. I will say they are very different in a lot of ways, and they don't. They look. They look alike facially, coat wise, very different. Presley was like all thick in the back, like all black on the on the back with like one little spot, and then all of his speckling and was was down the front. She is ticked throughout with like with spots here and there. However, I will show you a photo of Presley after this. I took her over to my best friend's house one night, and she fell asleep on him. And this was the photo that I took because you can see that like her entire coat is like dark in the background, and then when I show you, it was like the most profound moment where I was like, "Oh crap, that's Presley. So like just seeing her like with that all black spot, I think it looks just like him. I was like,

Chelsey Marino  18:55  
"Yeah,

Joe Bailey  18:55  
oh, I was like, oh my god, that's my dog.

Chelsey Marino  18:57  
Yeah,

Joe Bailey  18:58  
right. So you just you so they look a lot alike. So I think there was a lot of value. There's a lot of facial similarity in them. There's a lot of behavioral similarity. Carol Presley took a while to come out of his shell, obviously because he was fresh off of out of the rescue, and you know the rule of threes of you know three days, three weeks, three year, three months, and three years. There's a video. I have the video of him when I first got him coming out of the garage, and he's very timid and very afraid of the world around him. And then I have a video from right before he passed, where he's like dancing with his leash on, so proud and so happy and so full of life. And that was what I had assumed was going to happen with Carol. Was it was going to be exactly the same, and it was not. Harold was free for about a year before I went and picked her up. So she had had a year of of freedom, obviously not adopted. But almost a year of freedom under her belt, where she-I mean, she parkoured in the hotel room that night when we were driving back from Noada, Oklahoma, to New Jersey. She was like bouncing off the walls of like the hotel room and then like snuggling up underneath me, but then like running around all over again. I was like, "What did I just do? Like because she was such a like in my mind, I was ready to be like, "This is water. This is how you walk downstairs. And she's like jumping off of the desk in the hotel room, going crazy. And I'm like, "Oh, she's like, are you talking about that first night? The answer is yes, I'm talking about that first night. But she was like parkouring off of everything. Like she was so unafraid of the world around her, but at the same time, she's also very submissive and very timid. That it's just a very different personality. So I think the expectation of her being like Presley existed. The reality is she's very, very different.

Chelsey Marino  20:59  
It's interesting with Ridgeland Farms closing, obviously that's you know big news, and a lot of people have these research beagles now. And myself working with Ridgeland Farms beagles, it is such a difference between the beagles who go straight, who have gone straight from Ridgeland Farms into homes versus Ridgeland Farms into a rescue into homes, and obviously with the non-Ridgeland farm dogs, you know, for example, Kindness Ranch and Beagle Alliance, they are the sanctuaries and the rescues where the dogs go from the labs to that like middle halfway house, if you will, and then into homes. And you are so accurate with saying that it's completely different. The dogs who have gotten the opportunity to go to places like Kindness Ranch to decompress and to learn their lives, and then get adopted into homes, even if it's a couple weeks or a year, you know, like Carol, like that makes such a difference. So I really appreciate when we have dogs go straight from the labs to somewhere where the people know how to take care of them and how to you know give them freedom, but not like literally a whole new world day one. Like it really, really, really does make a difference.

Joe Bailey  22:22  
Well, and it it's interesting, right? Like where where I was very lucky in in Los Angeles is I had like my one of my best friends Hanru. He had his dog Colby, right? So Presley didn't necessarily lose the the pack he was with. Like it would just change shape of a dog wasn't there every day, and it was very much having like I still have the videos of him first going down the stairs and me being like, "Yes, like we did it! Like so excited for you with Carol. It it was obviously different in like all the best ways. It a lot of things obviously didn't take as long with her, like getting her to go to the bathroom outside and a few other things. That said, I will also say it's it's also just like having a second child or so. I'm told with the first one, I was so concerned. Like Presley, you need to sit. Presley, you have to like just to like get him to be like what with Carol. I'm like she's never going to sit, and that's fine because that that with that year out and and the freedom that she experienced, teaching her some of those commands feels like I'm taking away that freedom again. Like she sits on her own. I don't need to tell her sit. She gets on the couch and she lays down. I don't need to tell her to lay down. Like she's able to do all of those things. So it doesn't make sense for me to teach her to do some of those things,

Lori Cohen  23:42  
you have in a way two very different experiences with a former research beagle. We do always say Chelsea and I, when we're working with our fosters, can can almost map out the transition periods for how these dogs decompress, and I I think that's you know for us at the Beagle Alliance, I think that's what's so special about our collaboration, and and speaks to our very very great adoption rate is really the collaboration during the process from the time the dog is released. I know that when we have had dogs released from Canadian facilities, just as you know, Joe. How different it is that they're being literally released from the lab and going into someone's home, and what that looks like for that person. Whereas when we three work together, we there's almost this transformation that happens just in the process from going from the lab to the sanctuary to working with Chelsea to start with, and then to us, and even in a matter of two weeks, you see quite a difference. And I'm sure that you saw that even in that two week period. That is as hard as it was. I'm sure you saw leaps and bounds, and of course steps backwards, but always forward.

Joe Bailey  25:06  
Our hardest time was when he was when he was neutered. I think that was our hardest time, just because he was confined in a cone, and then also then regated, and it was trying to figure out because I didn't want to crate him, and all of all. But putting him behind a gate, he also like that caused some triggers because he was back behind something that was like and confined to an area. So those like so the emergency surgeries I talked about at that time were because he physically ran himself through the gates, he didn't want to be behind a gate anymore. It was interesting, and that was probably like three weeks into having had him. And we had come to your point, Lori. We had come far. We were starting to walk downstairs. We were starting to to. We were working with the trainer to begin to eat slower. We were working on you know going to the bathroom outside and like my understanding. So when I went to pick Carol up, I physically to go to Freedom Field, which is where Presley was kept. I always say that it's the day that broke my Disney Pixar dream because when you know about these animals that are kept in different facilities. For me, I always imagined Presley as like a Disney Pixar animal, knowing he was kept outside. I imagined him as like that three-dimensional, like woody, like character with like snow on his head, right? Or and and what it was like and like the little like you know darkness of like the moonlight like lighting him up and like you like some you somewhere make it like idyllic, I guess for like lack of a better term to make it easier, and then I went out to Freedom Fields to pick up Carol and I I took some of Presley's ashes with me to spread them and they took me on a tour, and they kept two of the pens up that they were in. And in those first two weeks of having had Presley, one of the things I learned, which I thought it was like the weirdest thing, he always had to go number two against something. So if it was like a cactus, a bush, a tree, his butt had to physically be like backed up against something for him to go number two. I was like, and it's funny. My mom would be like, so cute, like he like likes to have his butt tickled before he poops, and I was like, nah, okay, fine, mom, like whatever you say. But what I but what I realized was like they were kept on crabgrass in a pen, so the only way he knew how to go to the bathroom or what felt good to him to go to the bathroom was for him to have crabgrass or something like that physically against him because that's when he felt safest to go to the bathroom. That's what felt most natural for him outside, so I would say going to Freedom Fields and having that experience of touring, I actually learned so much more in those first two weeks that I probably would go back and change because I didn't realize the extent of how they were kept. Because Freedom Fields becoming Freedom Fields didn't happen for two years after Presley, me having had him. Right, so I didn't realize some of those nuances. So I probably would have done things a little bit differently because that caused a lot of like the the you know forward and backward progression for Presley. For Carol, it's been very different. She definitely still hates the grass, specifically when it's wet. But she will go to the bathroom out there. But she doesn't like to stay outside for too long unless I'm with her. Whereas Presley was like fine outside by himself for like periods of time. Carol hasn't really had regressions. I would say with a female dog, it's different. Just like there were moments that I thought were aggressions, but it turned out like was like a UTI or other things of that nature. Just having a female dog and anal glands and all of those other fun things that beagles have. So she's been a lot easier in that regard.

Joe Bailey  29:13  
The one thing that's also interesting about both of them, I'm able to off leash both of them, which I know a lot of people are like timid to do with their beagles. Presley would like off leash and just go like a little bit further ahead, and that was fine. Carol, I off leash about two houses away from our house now, and she like just runs to the front door and sits, and is like totally chill because it's like their safe place. And I think also that like I've become their safe place, so they don't venture too far from me. Whereas with other, you know, with other beagles, they're so exploratory; they just like get out there and they go. But yeah, I would say that those are the things that are mainly different about them, and what I probably would have done different in those first two weeks had I known what free what was actually happening in Novada.

John Ramer  29:58  
Joe, I'm very envious. You can have your dogs off lead because I I have three beagles and I've never let them off lead and we we live out here on 1200 acres of land and I just know that their nose would go to the ground and they would never come back. So today, my wife and I are fortunate enough that we're having a new home built for us on site out here at the sanctuary. So the the home is going to be completely off grid and solar. And my wife and I were up at the home site last night trying to visualize where all of the solar panels were going to go, and we couldn't quite come to a solid agreement between the two of us. So this morning, I took my dog Uno up there, and I had a pocket full of treats, and I put him down on the ground, and I told him the first bush that he watered would be the corner of our solar system, and he he just wandered around off leash for about five minutes, peed on a bush, and I put a stake right there, and that's where the solar system's going to be. You know what? And that's the first time I've had him at his

Joe Bailey  31:12  
work. That's funny.

John Ramer  31:15  
It's the first time I've ever had him off leash. And what he chooses to do is

Chelsey Marino  31:20  
Yeah.

John Ramer  31:21  
Yep.

Chelsey Marino  31:22  
Yep.

John Ramer  31:24  
So one

Joe Bailey  31:25  
time, Presley. So we went to I in LA. My house is right by right by the Grove in the MPan Pacific Park. I would take Presley there, and like I would like let him off the sheet, and he would walk around. He was like totally fine. And one day, there was a puppy there that he was like really excited to be with, and the puppy took off, and he took off. And like, here's the one thing I will say though about like a rescue beagle, primarily Presley. It doesn't really happen with Carol. Presley would get these eyes occasionally, and like they were like the crazy like, oh my energy's here, I'm gonna rock and roll eyes, and like when those would come, that's when I would have the old like moment of like now you're in for it, and I saw his eyes shift, and the puppy went, and he went, and I was like running across Pan Pacific Park, cursing that dog out, and like I was like, and then like I like literally physically like tackled him and like put him on his back, and I was like, I was like, don't ever run away from me again. And like, there's like, you know, and like, don't you know

Chelsey Marino  32:32  
how good you have it? I was like, don't you run away from me again?

Joe Bailey  32:35  
This homeless person was like, you good, dude? And I was like, no, no, sir. We are not okay. I thought my rescue beagle was about to go. Oh my God! No, wait. I'll tell you one other story about that dog. Oh God, love him. So Presley was diagnosed in March of 2024 with his lymphoma, New Year's Eve. I had left a job where I had an office in New York City. They mailed me my desk. There was chocolate in the desk, and I didn't know it because I had not seen that desk in four or five years, like been in that physical desk because I was in LA. I ran to CBS, which was on my corner, came home, and like it's so weird. Where's this hole in the box from? And what are all these wrappers? He ate five bars of chocolate. So I ran back. I called the animal poison control hotline. They said get the get the hydrogen peroxide peanut butter. I like so I ran back. First of all, canceled my New Year's Eve party ran back to CVS, got the hydrogen peroxide and the peanut butter, stirred the whole thing up. We spent our entire New Year's Eve. I basically it's like he was like a drunk 21 year old, like like in the toilet. I was like holding his ears back outside as he was like like hurling it all up. All right, so we made it through, and I was like, I had to go outside the next day and clean up all of like the chocolate peanut butter that was all over the backyard, and then when when ultimately he passed away in November, my sister and I were like sitting next to each other. I was like, I should have just let him go out with the chocolate. Like that would have been like such a much more fun way for him. Like he ate like six bars of chocolate and like he lived his best life versus like ultimately how we had to do it, but I never forget that I was like, if I would have known then what I know now, I would have just let you die on a chocolate high. Like you would have been so happy having gone out that way, versus like how it ultimately ended up happening for us. Oh yeah, my 21-year-old dog, whose ears I held back as he vomited in my backyard, it was great.

Chelsey Marino  34:38  
I think that's so funny, considering at the beginning, you were like, "Oh, he made me slow down. Like I used to, you know, be the guy who, you know, went out or fast-paced life, and then you expect one thing for a New Year's Eve party, and it's kind of I can just imagine like holding his ears back, being like, "Well, I didn't know that. Like it's just so comical of like,

Joe Bailey  34:56  
"Oh, it was like honest players

Chelsey Marino  34:58  
could be versus what it." Well,

Lori Cohen  35:00  
really, it was New Year's. It was really just an 18-year-old New Year's. I mean, it was yeah. By

Joe Bailey  35:06  
the way, I was I was like, oh, this is what it's like because I'm I'm I'm 41. I'm like, oh, now I understand all my friends who have teenagers what they go through on a regular basis. I'm just doing it with a four-legged animal who can't who who couldn't come be like, oh, Dad, I ate too much chocolate. Sorry, I'm I'm chocolate drunk. Oh no, chocolate wasted. No, no, no. I had to come home. I had to do my detective work, and then I had to sit there and hold the ears in the backyard. It was, oh man, that was something else.

John Ramer  35:33  
Well, as a parent, you do the detective work anyway. I speak from experience on that.

Lori Cohen  35:44  
And now, dogs beyond the lab continues.

John Ramer  35:50  
So I'm I'm curious about now that you've got Carol and how your your earlier experience prepared you, but of course, Carol's entirely different. And what what was on

Chelsey Marino  36:07  
cue? On cue. She hears her name and

Joe Bailey  36:10  
she's like, "That's me.

John Ramer  36:12  
So, what are some of the challenges that you've had that, like introducing her to new people, new environments, and stuff like that. Describe some of the challenges that your your social side of things weren't quite prepared for.

Joe Bailey  36:33  
It's a little bit different here. Hi, Bubba. You want to you want to belly rub? It's the belly

Chelsey Marino  36:39  
tax.

Joe Bailey  36:40  
Yeah, she's like, she's like, hi, you forgot about me. Well, we woke up this morning. I told her today was her big day, where she was going to become a star.

Chelsey Marino  36:49  
She is. She's a star. Her tail

Joe Bailey  36:51  
right now is like wagging, like no tomorrow. She's like, oh my god, I'm so excited. And it's her. By the way, the one thing I will say about the lab in Novada is they kept really great records. So Presley's birthday was august 5, and her birthday is august 26. So her birthday is coming up on Wednesday. She also she also shares it with my sister. So my sister hates

Chelsey Marino  37:11  
it, and and also

Joe Bailey  37:13  
so but we're having my sister's dog has a squamous cell carcinoma, and sadly the tissues become necrotic. So they have to make a decision in the next few days. So tonight we're going over to celebrate my sister's birthday while Marley is still with us. So everyone is getting a giant coffee cake from the local bakery. Carol and Marley included are getting their own like giant little coffee cakes for their birthday and celebration of life that we're doing tonight. So she's like really getting her best Friday that she's had in a very long time. She's like Carol. Like Carol lives her best life, and we could all just dream of what it's like to be her, right, Carol?

Lori Cohen  37:50  
To be a leisure beagle.

Joe Bailey  37:51  
Yeah, she's like she's like I worked for five and a half years, Dad, and now I'm free. So this is it. So I deserve to be driven around on the Range Rover, you jerk. Anyway, what was different this time around? So when I when I picked Carol up and brought her home, I brought her home to New Jersey first, which is where my family is. My sister has Marley. Marley is a German short-haired pointer. When I was talking to Beagle Freedom Project about adopting both Carol and Cookie, they had outlined like Carol's really great with children. She's really great with other dogs. She does have some challenges with larger dogs, but overall, we think it's something that she'll she'll get past. Right. So that first day of bringing her back home to New Jersey, you know, my sister brought my niece over and and Marley over to the house, and so like we did the whole outside thing, and I would say like there was probably a moment where like Carol was like WTF, and I'm not sure I like you, but within like five or so minutes she was totally fine, which was great in that regard. But that's probably from like a and so like I've I've done the outdoor socialization with her, with them with other larger dogs post Marley, and overall it's been fine. I think the main challenge has been, and it's more me than it is her, because she's so much more submissive than Presley was. I recently introduced her. My friend has four dogs, and I introduced her to that pack of four, and I was probably more nervous because her being so submissive and like there's four dogs who are together all the time, and like are they going to try to like determine like which one is the alpha? I was more nervous, John, in that regard, just because of her and her demeanor and her behavior. But overall, I would say no challenges with other animals. That part has been has been easy. I just always keep in the back of my mind the larger dog thing that the Beagle Freedom Project had had told me about. What has been the most interesting with her is her with my niece and my nephew, because when I rescued her. Olivia was seven months old, and Carol was so wildly uninterested in her, which is fine because I mean, like I assume like most dogs are like I'm not really into the baby at this moment, but it's been amazing to watch how the two of them have somewhat blossomed together. So when I have to work like long days, Carol goes over to my parents' house with my niece and my nephew, and so they have spent a lot of time together, and they've become very, very, very close. And it's been interesting to watch her go from like not wanting anything to do with them to like now following Olivia around the house and like them becoming very, very close. It also helps that my father taught her to feed Carol from the table.

Speaker 1  40:48  
Oh,

John Ramer  40:48  
wonderful!

Joe Bailey  40:50  
I was sitting watching her one night, and I was like, "I don't think Marley lets you feed Marley from the table, so I don't think you should be feeding Carol from the table. And then my sister, she did it with Marley, and my sister sent a text. My dad was like, "That was me. Sorry, we thought it was cute. But it's been amazing to watch her open up in in that regard. I would say a lot of the things that I learned with Presley, I took into practice with Carol from the outset of being patient and being present. And like those first two weeks, I took a lot of time away from work and from the office to just be present and to understand her and how she shows up in the world and just how she, to your point, like in the question, interacts with other dogs, interacts with other humans, even to this day, like how she interacts with me. I mean, there are some days where she like wants to be around me, and other days where she wants to lay on the complete opposite side of the couch and like understanding. And actually, Chelsea, I think it was you who was it you who posted the video about like when your beagle looks at you or looks away from you in a training setting.

Chelsey Marino  41:54  
Maybe when they're like when just like looking at them is too much pressure for them. Yes, and they like turn their head away awkwardly.

Joe Bailey  42:02  
Yeah, yeah. And like understanding what the scenarios are for her where that happens. Like for Presley, his stressor was when there would be too many people in the house. He would put himself to bed. Like he would put he would physically remove himself and put himself in the bedroom, and like he was fine there. Carol's the complete opposite. She wants to be like in the crowd, but I get, but I give her the option of like the bedroom door is open if you would like to go there, and like giving her the optionality, learning from Presley like where he did very very well, whereas she's a lot more social and a lot more like open to new people and new things and new experiences. Like I have to explain to her that other dogs want to eat her. Sometimes I'm like, no, that dog does not want to be your friend across the street. That dog would like to eat you for lunch. So please stop wanting to go over.

Chelsey Marino  42:52  
The

Joe Bailey  42:53  
only other thing that is that is different that we somewhat work through is Carol does have a voice. Unlike Presley, Presley was always quiet. Carol whines a lot, but that's her way of telling me that she needs something. She doesn't do it when she has to go outside, but like in general, if she wants to like go to a different room or she wants to, she wants a treat. It's all mainly it's like around treats or dinner time. I like how half your face is in the camera for this right now. Treats her dinner time. She starts to whine and she starts to give me like the paw. She also wakes me up at 5o'clock in the morning for breakfast. Presley never did that. Presley, I had to wake him up and be like, "It's time to go. So it's just been different in in in those regards. So not really challenges with her. It's just been a lot Of learning what are the things that make her operate the way she does, and how do I get in sync with them? But again, like it was very different with her than like Presley. I think had a lot more challenges because he was fresh out of the lab because Carol had that time beforehand. That's where like I you know as I said before, I'm not going to force her to learn how to sit. I'm not going to force her to learn how to lay down. Like she's a very gentle dog. She's very easy. It's been me learning how to get in sync with her and her peculiarities, so that we can become like synchronized in how we operate in the world. I

Chelsey Marino  44:22  
was thinking about this the other day because I had a session with one of my clients, and they have been-I mean-the worst potty training case I have ever done. John, I don't know if you remember Duke from a couple rescues ago, but Duke had-I mean, I have done dog behavior for 10 years, and I swear this dog is the worst potty training case because we just can't figure it out, right? And so we had a session the other day, and one of these things kind of clicked where, you know, Duke doesn't like to go to the bathroom where he has previously gone to the. Bathroom, and so we were like, you know what? What if he's just like he doesn't want to be near it, and he's like a cleanly if you think about it that way. Anyway, long story short, they got like new, not related to Duke, but they had to get new like turf and mulch and everything in their backyard. Anyway, and so we're like, this is a good opportunity to test that.

John Ramer  45:20  
Right.

Chelsey Marino  45:20  
They texted me this video of Duke, and he was zooming the backyard, and she's like, "He's pooped out here twice. He's never explored the yard this much. Maybe it's just he needed like a fresh slate or whatever. Yeah. Anyway, it's just this example of a lot of the Things that the humans who have these former research beagles figure out is how to accept the dog for who they are, and there's a lot of things that I do. Where yes, we can change this. Like, where do you want the dog to sleep? Because we can like go towards that goal, or what do would you like the dog to do in this situation, and we can go towards that goal. But also, a lot of the time is just kind of accepting. Hey, they're weird sometimes. Like sometimes they're very, very particular, and they like this and not this, and in this setting, and they like to do it this way. And just having this realization that I can't tell you this. You have to get there on your own. Of like, you know what? That's okay with me. Like, if they want to have it this particular way, and they want to eat dinner before they go poop in the morning, or they want to eat breakfast before they go outside to go potty, versus wake up, go potty, then eat breakfast. Like those type of things, I think is just so great when adopters get there and they're like, you know what? It's just who they are, and I don't want to change it that much.

Joe Bailey  46:52  
Well, and I also think it's interesting. Sorry, John. I I also think it's interesting because we get it, but then I realize that sometimes the world around me doesn't get it.

Chelsey Marino  47:01  
Yeah.

Joe Bailey  47:01  
So I'm I'm going to get up for a second. I'm going to show you a great example. And this is, by the way, no shade to my parents who I do love very much. But let me. I'm going to say this. Well, I think it's also

Lori Cohen  47:11  
like you know blanketing parenting as if your two children are the same. Absolutely.

Joe Bailey  47:18  
Okay. So these are the toys, along with there's like there's a pop tart over there that I didn't pick up, and like two others that my parents are like it crinkles, and she like loves it, and she's like so obsessed with.

Speaker 1  47:30  
By the way,

Joe Bailey  47:31  
she hears it now, and she's gonna come running over and be like, oh, what are these? And like by the way, today's be the day where she actually attempts to play with it. The only toy that she likes is the toy that she came with. This is like her favorite. See how she's taking it right now. Like, yeah, it's her only. It's her favorite toy. I try to explain like mom, dad, like buying her more toys is not like that's. She doesn't play with those. She play. She actually likes it when I give her like the plastic after I like eat a Chobani yogurt, the plastic container that it was in, like she loves to like run around with like that in her mouth. Like to your point about like the dog being weird, like she's a like she licks. By the way, she licks the yogurt out of it because that's like her little treat, and then she like goes running around the house with it, and she runs with it into my living room, and she like dances around with it, and like has a blast and has a ball. She doesn't like toys. Like it's not a part of her and and her personality to ever want a toy. She wants the pig, only the pig. She runs around the house with the pig, and that pig is going to be with us until the day that she dies or I lose it somewhere in this house. But like that is her toy and the only toy that she needs. I bought her her own bed. I get the the salvaged like square beds. Presley had one when we were in LA, and I obviously still have his bed as well. His bed is upstairs right now in my upstairs office. This is the family room that I'm in, and the bed that is down here, she's laid in it three times. But that bed upstairs, because it smells like him. She gets in that thing and she like absolutely loves it. So like it was because she feels most comfortable in something that's already been lived in by like another animal that she can smell. She's not. She doesn't want like this bed. Beautiful looks great in my family room. Complete waste of money because her. She would prefer to be in something that's already been lived in by another animal because it feels safe to her, right? So, like, there are some very particular things about her personality that you just like learn to live with, and like, it's easy for me to get. It's sometimes hard, like, you know, my mom sees the bed and she'd be like, "But it's so pretty. Why doesn't she like it? It's just like the other one. And it's like I couldn't tell you, could not. I could get an animal communicator, and I could ask her, but I'm not going to do that. I think it's just it's fine. She wants to lay over here, and we're going to call it a day. Hi, I

John Ramer  49:48  
really believe that one of the most common themes of adopters of former research beagles is that the beagles ultimately end up training her adopters. I

Lori Cohen  50:00  
agree. I agree. To do what they would even. I would. I. I think that I could even take it a step further and say it's not even former research beagles. It's just beagles in general. Beagles in general will not do what you ask them to do, and therefore you bend because they're extra cute and they talk you into it.

Joe Bailey  50:21  
Well, yeah. See, you know what's interesting. So, one thing that we have learned, I've taught Carol to not do is to stand on the dishwasher. So,

John Ramer  50:37  
I need some concerts.

Joe Bailey  50:38  
My parents, my parents growing up always allowed the dogs to like lick the dishes in the dishwasher while they were building. Oh, when the doors

Chelsey Marino  50:46  
open, yeah, when the doors open, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry, sorry, yes, crazy. I was like, don't you have the guidance when the door is open, right? Okay, okay. So,

Joe Bailey  50:55  
um, we so I just had this house remodeled. I had to get a new dishwasher. Listen, things are not made like they were made years ago. So these cabinets, while while these cabinets while beautiful, the dishwasher slants whenever someone's paws go on

Chelsey Marino  51:11  
it.

Joe Bailey  51:11  
So I have taught her when she is in this house to not do that. And what is super interesting, and my sister and I talk about this all the time, is it's actually not about like at least for Carol unlearning behavior from like Freedom Fields or anything like that. It's unlearning the behavior that my parents let her get away with.

Chelsey Marino  51:29  
Correct. And it's the same. It's the

Joe Bailey  51:31  
same thing with like Marley. When Marley comes back, I'm like, she's on the goddamn dishwasher again, and I told them not to do that. I'm like, and she's so. I find myself like I'm holding the dishwasher handle, like, like lifting it up with all the dishes in there to like get it straight again, so it's not on a slant. The thing stops coming out at me, and Carol's like, "What? Or she like, she she puts her paws up on the counter. I'm like, "We don't do that in this house because there's another house where I have to unlearn behavior from.

Chelsey Marino  51:58  
That's how I feel when I go away and I come back, and my dog comes home from grandma's all-inclusive resort. Yes, every time that he goes outside to potty, he comes back in and gets a treat. And I'm like, we don't play that game here, Stan. Oh, you know, it's a little bit different in our house. Yeah, no

Joe Bailey  52:15  
way. But and also, my mom and pop pops, my mom and bebop's clock for things is very different than dads,

Chelsey Marino  52:23  
yeah.

Joe Bailey  52:23  
Because dad works a full day, so like sometimes lunches at noon, and sometimes like that tree you get it for lunches at like

Chelsey Marino  52:31  
one.

Joe Bailey  52:32  
But here it's like the call starts at like 1130 a.m. and you're like, I can't, I I need to give them like a don't don't do it at the same time every time she's there because they think like she thinks that that is what she

Chelsey Marino  52:45  
yeah

Joe Bailey  52:45  
she thinks that is what she gets right Bubba is that what you think you get

John Ramer  52:49  
their internal clocks are very accurate

Chelsey Marino  52:52  
they love predictability and they will hold you accountable for that yeah

Joe Bailey  52:57  
she comes back from my mom and bebop's all inclusive resort a completely different dog, and I sometimes I don't know what to do with it. But what happens with that is because my parents are like, "Oh, she's just like a normal dog. Like they can't, they have a very hard time comprehending that she did was not raised the way our beagles were. Like when I say that when I say she was kept on a farm. They think about the farm where, like, we got Chloe and Breezy from. They don't think about the in cap, you know, because Farmer George was great and like kept, you know, kept the dogs that he was breeding very well, and so on and so forth. Like she was not kept in in that same in that same type of a place on a farm, right? And so I think it's it's hard for them to grasp, and so they also I think it's also hard for them to understand when you have trained a rescue beagle to to not do certain things because those are the things that like help fit within the lifestyle that you that you're creating for the dog. When they begin to unlearn them, it's hard to get it back because they're like because they they they would prefer to have that sense of freedom, right? And again, like a lot of it fits into her and her needs and her schedule. Hi, Bubba. I know you think it's time for dinner, and it's not. But it's it's difficult because my parents like allow for her to unlearn a lot of that sometimes, and like it's because she's just like a normal dog, and I'm like it's she's not the normal dog thing. Always throws me.

Chelsey Marino  54:26  
I have one more thing that I had written down. I want to ask, and I'm going to bring it back to Presley a little bit because I think the whole story with Presley and Carol, I think, is like I don't know if romantic is the right word, but like I always get.

Joe Bailey  54:41  
I like serendipitous.

Chelsey Marino  54:42  
Yeah, I always like feel more emotion when I hear these stories of how dogs mold our lives, even beyond their control. Right, and I think it's interesting for me to think about Presley spending a significant part. Of his early life, where his existence was merely to benefit others, right? And in a completely different way, his passing now has created this opportunity for another dog, and we could even say a biological member of his family to now have a home in the same family where he was loved and he was cared for, and like I think that's beautiful. And have you ever thought about that, or like what does that mean for you to know that not that his passing helped you get Carol, but like he still is kind of planning this thing for you, even if he hasn't. And in his own passing, he's still ultimately being like selfless. If you think about it that way, you know. And I know you said you felt guilty because you didn't maybe mourn him the way you should have, but maybe he didn't want that.

Joe Bailey  55:58  
I mentioned that I had done like psychedelic breath work, which just for to put it out there, it's like when you do very intense breathing and it it takes you to an altered state. And I I had done a retreat in Nashville with some very close friends, and that we were doing the breath work, and you invite people into your house, and so I had invited Presley into the home, and I we had a conversation around how I have, I still have it, even though I don't think about it as much as I used to. I still have a tremendous amount of guilt for with him. That guilt is due to the fact that he was in the laboratory for five to six years, and all I wanted to be able to give him was an equal amount of time outside of the lab. So if he was in for five years, I wanted him out for five years, and we were robbed of that, like robbed of that. And every night before he went to sleep, I would tell him it's actually it's engraved on his on his box over here. You are safe, and you are loved, and no one is ever going to hurt you again. And like I always felt like I couldn't keep that promise. Sorry, I apologize for crying. I just I felt like I couldn't keep that because I couldn't keep him safe from the lymphoma, and like we tried, and we were not going down without a fight. And I made that like very clear to him, and I made it very clear to our oncology team of like we were not going down without a fight, and we were so lucky. Like Dr. Taylor and Caitlin and Lindsay. Oh my God, I don't have one with me. I can pull it up on my phone. I made a mass card of Presley. I put his face on the Blessed Mother, and I sent it out on my Christmas cards. Like, so it's his face imposed on the Blessed Mother's body. I apologize if anyone here is religious, but and I I did a whole mass card on the back, and like I thanked Mount Laurel Animal Hospital. They still have that card up in the back of in the back of, I just saw them the other day when I was there with my sister's dog in the in the back where they where they take the the dogs for chemo. I was so lucky to have had him, and I feel so guilty that I wasn't able to give him that same amount of freedom. And I think I just I had this realization on of the day that he died that like while it was my job to help him understand what freedom was he helped me find mine. I through him am so unafraid of what happens in the world. Through him, I was able to come home and be home more and like get be here when my niece was born, and get to like have these experiences. That being halfway across the the, I mean, all the way across the country, like I never would have had those experiences. That's why I always refer to him as the boy who brought me home. And so, I you know I I refer to Carol as my redemption arc because I wasn't finished when when he passed away. I wasn't done helping a dog find freedom. It was he didn't have enough time, and so the fact that I get to do it again with a completely different animal, who is it's like it's wild. It's wild to have realized how how much I love her, because there was so much of him that I loved, and so much of him that I expected in this experience that I didn't get. That because of that guilt and because of that expectation, as I said, I had a hard time connecting. So when I did the work to have that bit of disconnection. It's amazing how in love I've fallen with her. It's amazing how different she is, but also how much of him I can see in there. And it goes, what he's done for me goes even just beyond her. He's.

Joe Bailey  59:59  
Given me, like I said, the freedom to know that, like, if the bottom falls out tomorrow, I'll be able to catch myself. He's given me the gift of being here to build a relationship with my niece and with my nephew, and to have a closer relationship with my sister and brother-in-law because I've now purchased a home in close proximity to them, and I go back and forth to LA a lot more, you know. And then he also he led me to Carol, and she has been the greatest gift out of all of that. I will say every time we go to the vet, and I also when I pet her, sometimes I do find myself like palpating and other things because I am afraid that it's going to happen again, but I continue to tell myself that like lightning isn't going to strike twice in this situation, and if it, we will be okay from a lymphoma standpoint. You never know what it's going to be, so I do still have a little bit of fear and trepidation of that being exactly the same. But yeah, like he did a lot more for me than he'll ever realize that he did, you know. And it's not just Carol. It's on a lot of personal and familial levels.

John Ramer  1:01:06  
You know, I can say, having just met you, that that wanting to match his time out of the breeding facility and lab that he spent in That, from an outside perspective, that's a beautiful symbolic time frame that you placed on yourself. But I guarantee you, there is something to be said about the quality of days that you gave him Instead of the quantity and the quality of his life outside of that facility far surpasses the time that he spent inside. So I I think you you deserve to be proud of what you were able to give him, and he he definitely served his purpose as well because look at how well prepared you are to extend that love to another. Oh,

Joe Bailey  1:02:08  
Carol, they think I'm well prepared too. If they only knew, you're getting a really well behaved. You're getting really well behaved right now. No, thank you. It's so true. You know, I mean, listen. Whenever you whenever you lose an animal, you rack yourself with all the things you would have done differently, right? And you don't always think about all the positive things. And like, I'll tell you a funny story. Um, so our block in Los Angeles, you know, obviously there are a lot of folks that had dogs, so you would see people out like walking dogs and so on and so forth on a regular basis. The same people, and like one day, I was like, "Oh my god, who is this like really hot man walking this dog? And then I saw him, and I was like, "Oh crap! He's got a wedding ring on, so he probably has like a wife at home. So like, there there went like my there went my meet cute with like my like my new boyfriend, right? And so that was how I met Jackson, who was the dog, and Adam, who was Jackson's dad, and you know when we were first getting ready to say hello, Jackson's like, "Listen, he doesn't do great with like dogs that are like around his size or bigger, so like, and also male dogs, so like, we'll see how this goes. But like, they hit it off, and then I met went on to meet Adam's husband Joel, and the two of them become. By the way, he was not straight; he was gay. So then I, because then I saw Joel, I'm like, "Oh, who's that? I'm like, "Oh, goddamn it, you're married! Like, God damn it! Two hot people, of course. I'm like, "I'll be the single guy walking the dog around, gray. This is wonderful. But Presley like introduced me to Presley and Jackson were like best friends, and so when they would travel, I would take Jackson. When I would travel, they would take Presley, and like he also opened the doors for like friendships. I have videos where like the one thing he always did when he was getting fed is he would like hop. Actually, Chelsea, one of the photos I'll send you to use is like a photo that I I have of him where I'm like getting a treat out and he's like hopping, like to like behind me to get the treat. Like Adam sent me a video of him just like hopping up and down. I was like, "Is that a bunny rabbit? Like, what's happening? But like, he introduced me to like my best friends. He and and he had the best time with Jackson and like running around and being free and like he was here with like Olivia and like all of those things. And I think you just like you tend to forget all those positives when you have something go down the way that it did in a very unexpected way, but also say this: like I met like the best veterinary staff. So why I made it at a point to purchase a home here in New Jersey and also keep my life in LA is because I love that staff. And if Carol ever gets sick, I want Dr. Taylor to be the oncologist, right? I want Caitlin to be the vet tech who does it. Right before Presley had had passed away, they did a very good job of preparing me. So we went in for his chemo on a Tuesday, and I will admit I accidentally did not give him. Is like chemo sedative within the right time frame, so he was a little hyperactive, and he may or may not have needed an entire jar of peanut butter to sit to sit still for his treatment. And so Lindsay, one of the one of the one of our two texts comes out, and she with her piece of paper, and she was like, "Hi, just want to let you know, Caitlin passive aggressively underlined that you need to remember to give him the sedatives, and I was like, Lindsay, can you please tell her to passively aggressively underline the time for me next time because she needed the I just needed the wrong time period. Thank you for playing.

Joe Bailey  1:05:33  
Come again, and she was like, Hey, just like as a heads up, because he was so unsettled, a little bit of like the fluid came back in and it's yellow, so his liver is starting to fail. So we just want to start to prepare you for like what comes next. And so I did get very lucky because I had a staff that like we had a lot of fun together. But they also moved heaven and earth. Like the nights where Presley had to be on oxygen when I was traveling, I they would they would work it out where I could go in and I was able to like feed him dinner in the back, right? Or I was able to come in even if they were like in between shifts and like see him, and so that's that care is partially why I bought this home here because if Carol if Carol were to ever get sick or something were to happen, I want her to have that same level of care. I haven't been able to find that in Los Angeles, it's in that regard, and so it's that was very important for me.

Lori Cohen  1:06:25  
Joe, I just want to jump off of something John said, and especially because I think having animals, having dogs in particular, leaves you with a certain amount of guilt simply because we can't hear what they say to us in English, so we, you know, aren't exactly entirely sure what's happening with them at all times, and I also, of course, we know that no matter how many years we get with them, it's not enough. So, had you hit the mark that you had in your brain, it still we all know that it wouldn't have been enough. Of course, oh,

Joe Bailey  1:06:59  
never would have been enough. Never will,

Lori Cohen  1:07:01  
never will. We all agree to that. But what I want to kind of jump off with John is that I hear you crediting so much in your life to Presley that my hope for you is that you think about how much you're crediting him with, and I think that we all, I like to tell the fosters and adopters that you know we all believe that we choose our dogs, but really they choose us. And so, if you have credited Presley with so much, I think he knew exactly when he was going to leave, and and he rolled out everything for you. So I would give up that time and let it go.

Joe Bailey  1:07:39  
Someone said to me, Presley walked so Carol could run, and I was like, being about the truth.

Chelsey Marino  1:07:43  
Yeah, yeah, like the last selfless thing he could do. Yeah,

Lori Cohen  1:07:49  
and he knew, and and I think, I mean, if you're gonna credit him with so much, then then you might as well give it to him.

Joe Bailey  1:07:57  
Well, I mean, there's just so much that like an animal. I you know what? I didn't realize how much an animal would change my life. Rescue, rescue or not, I didn't realize how much having Matt would change me and how I showed up in the world as a person. And so, like, because he will always be the first dog that I have ever had on my own, he changed me so much, right? So, like, he he has what made me be in this place now of like wanting to be around family more and all those things. So yeah, like yeah,

Chelsey Marino  1:08:28  
an amazing story. I love your story. I love how you live with with the dogs and you know how they have changed you. And

John Ramer  1:08:36  
I think your story really signifies that you know this podcast isn't just for people involved with former research animals. the The way that you highlight the lessons that you learned and just having a dog in your life and the the commitment you make to to having that is is really universal. And our our hats off to you. There's there's a saying in the rescue world that for every dog you adopt, you rescue two because you make room for the sanctuary to bring in another one, and that that is very very true on especially on mine and Lori's, and thank you for for sharing that story with us and for for giving your your pup such a good home.

Joe Bailey  1:09:31  
To that point, like my sister going through what she's going through right now with her dog, like John, that conversation is literally what we talked about this morning. It's like it's not just what you have from the from a rescue or a laboratory dog. It's like what does the dog in general bring into your life? And like Marley's been through every season with her of so many seasons, right? Of like marriage, children, breakups, the whole nine. Like, well, no, we're not talking about Marley. We're talking about you. I'm sorry. I apologize. Well,

Lori Cohen  1:09:58  
and you know, it's. It's just a testament to how important the relationship is because no matter what the hardship is in the end, when we lose them, we would never have done it. We would never have not lived it with them.

Chelsey Marino  1:10:14  
Yeah, and we-I mean, just put ourselves through that again and again. You know, it's the biggest heartbreak of our lives, and we do it. We are ready to do it again. Exactly, you know.

Lori Cohen  1:10:26  
Exactly. Did you hear

Joe Bailey  1:10:27  
that? You're you're my next heartbreak, Carol.

Lori Cohen  1:10:31  
Joe, do you have any questions for us as we are chatting away here?

Joe Bailey  1:10:37  
So, what has been your experience with like dogs that have come out of places like Ridgeland, like how has that? How would that be? Like how have they been different than like dogs you may have experienced who've come from Freedom Fields?

John Ramer  1:10:49  
It's a great question.

Chelsey Marino  1:10:51  
What I have seen the difference of the dogs who come out. So Ridgeland and Invigo and Marshall are large breeding facilities, so the dogs there are bred for research and then sold to labs, universities, etc. And then those dogs are typically the dogs we think of when we know former research beagles because they get released to places like Kindness Ranch, Beagle Alliance, Beagle Freedom Project, etc. Right, so Ridgeland being you know what's happening now, these dogs are very different from the dogs I have worked with for the past you know five years, basically you know since Invigo. And aside from what I said before, which is there's a big difference of the Ridgeland Beagles who went straight to adopters and fosters versus into like rescues and then into fosters and adopters. Aside from that, you know you can only speculate some of the things at Ridgeland, but I see a lot of them have some different quirks that I haven't seen in other populations of research beagles, and they there's probably four or five major behavior issues that the majority of them have, whereas other dogs who come out obviously from various places, we kind of know those dogs are more people social than dog social, or those dogs are X Y Z. Whereas the Ridgeland Beagles, obviously, there's a lot of them have these same issues, but they are. I would say on the the negative side, there's a lot of fear of the dark that I see. There's a lot of hyper attachment to one person and a strong dislike of another person in that household. On the plus side, they are way more willing to face their fears than I would say other dogs who I've seen come out of labs. And I don't know if that's a we haven't been under trauma for as long, or different type of trauma, or we're not in a state of learned helplessness as much as some of these other dogs, but they do have a lot more like I can do it spirit for certain things, and then they'll get stuck at at one point. So

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:13:14  
interesting,

Chelsey Marino  1:13:14  
they're different. They're similar in a way, but I mean, working with the Ridge and Beagles, yeah, I mean, going into the going into them, I've been doing. I've been working almost exclusively with research beagles for you know five years now, and there are still some things that are are different. And I had to think, okay, how are we going to do this? Because you know, obviously things are a little bit different with them.

Joe Bailey  1:13:37  
It's amazing how many people don't realize that beagles or dogs are the animals that are tested on as part of the process. So, like earlier today, I was having a conversation with a coworker. I'm like, "Oh, I'm doing a I'm having a conversation later today, a podcast about laboratory rescues. And she was like, "Wait, seriously? Like that was like a real thing? I'm like, "Yeah, no, it's it's very real, and it's it's interesting. You know, they think about rabbits, they think about mice, and like even talking about freedom fields, pigs and llamas and all of the other things that were there that like went through beyond even just the beagle. It's it's so interesting how many people don't realize how common it Still is, and like the the focus that Ridgeland in particular has brought onto the issue, you know, it's funny. I started getting all these DMs from people who know me and and my story, and are like, "Were you there? Did you go to Wisconsin? I was like, "No, but if I would have known that was happening, I would have been like on the first flight out, like you know, like let's go. And so it's just it's very it's very interesting the light that that has brought on it. But then you know the light has been on freeing them. It's not necessarily been on the other side of it, Chelsea. To your point of like where are they getting stuff?

Chelsey Marino  1:14:55  
Preach, yeah. Like that's

Joe Bailey  1:14:57  
only step one in a much yes. Longer process of like what freedom actually is and actually means. Absolutely,

Chelsey Marino  1:15:06  
yeah. I mean, getting them out is a huge step, but as you know, somebody who has lived with two of these dogs, there's a hell of a lot of work that comes next, you know, and like people,

Joe Bailey  1:15:19  
yes, like like having to comb them on the regular,

Chelsey Marino  1:15:21  
absolutely, and people should be credited for all of that hard work too, because adopters, fosters, like it's a hard job that y'all have to go through. So, so the whole process I call it a chain. You know, there's all of these different links of the chain. We're all doing work to get these dogs like recognized and out and into like sanctuaries, into rescues, into homes, and then help them, you know, into the future. And we're all part of this chain. And it would not work if we if there was a link missing anywhere.

John Ramer  1:15:54  
I think you touched on something there with Chelsea, Joe. Let

Chelsey Marino  1:15:57  
me get passionate about it. I think yeah, that's how I. I think fosters and adopters are amazing, amazing, amazing people. You are so right when you said that there's a lot of work that that they do. I think people like you don't get enough credit. Well, they're the heroes of ours. The rescues don't either. Like we don't have a facility. 100%

Joe Bailey  1:16:16  
Chelsea. If it hadn't been for me being like, "Hey, I've just gotten this dog, and like, am I like I like so? How I met Chelsea? I sent her a message, and I was like, I just got, I had just gotten Carol. She was so full of energy and so different than Preston. I was like, am I crazy? And like, Chelsea wrote me back like a really nice message. It was like, she's just going to be different, and here's what you need to think about. And like, so no one think like, yeah, Foster's and adopters sure, but like those who are running who are running the sanctuaries? Like those who are going out and helping those of us who are living with the because there are so cookies a great example. The the other dog that was related to Presley, he had a night terror, and the woman who was fostering him shook him awake, and so he snapped, and she returned him.

Lori Cohen  1:17:02  
Yeah.

Joe Bailey  1:17:02  
Right. And and whereas I was like, but I wouldn't like I wouldn't do that. So it'll be different now. Rightfully so, because of that. Like they didn't when like kids being around. Legal freedom said like, no, we don't think it's right for your home, which I totally appreciate. But like, if you're going into that situation understanding that there are resources like the three of you to say the dog's having night terrors, what should I do versus just going up and shaking the dog awake? It's a very different.

Chelsey Marino  1:17:31  
Even if you think it's the right thing to do, right? We all have you know a different idea of what is the right thing to do in that situation, and yeah, that's where it gets hard because these dogs are very different than any other dog population, so you should really know what to do.

Lori Cohen  1:17:44  
Well, preparation and education and support is really key because no matter I find that no matter how much and and we really take it upon ourselves to prep our potential fosters because we don't have a facility, they're going straight into a home. And granted, they've worked with kindness and with Chelsea for the most part a little bit before. But I think I think people feel calmer when they know you're there. Number one, that that they can make that phone call when they have the dog and they know they have that support, and also just no matter how much prep we do, I'll always somebody will always come back and say, you know, I know that you did all this prep, but I wasn't expecting this because, again, sort of like you said, Joe, that there's this idealized version of this traumatized dog that you have in your head, and then when the real work is there and it's in front of you, and the trauma is real, sometimes people are taken aback, and it seems overwhelming. And I think that that's an important piece for all of us: is making sure that the people who are fostering and adopting know that when they walk away with the dog, they're not on their own, and

Joe Bailey  1:19:02  
it can be a very isolating experience. So I think also, like, yeah. So fosters adopters, sure, Chelsea. But like, what the three of you are doing is just so incredible. You know.

Lori Cohen  1:19:10  
Thank you. That's not what I was saying. I really no. No, I know. I wasn't trying to. I was just saying that fosters

Joe Bailey  1:19:19  
and adopters are true heroes, and they do all the hard work. And the very least that we can do is when they walk out the door, right? We're there for them, right? I wish they would have prepped me for what I was about to see on Freedom Fields when I was when I was doing the tour, for two reasons. One is I had Presley's ashes in one hand and Carol in the other, and this dog was like bouncing everywhere, and I was like, oh God, here what are we doing here, right? But then the other part was like, I wasn't prepared for that emotional component of it all, right? Yeah, and like while I am so thankful that I got to experience it, to your point, Lori, it like it took a little while on top of everything else to settle.

Chelsey Marino  1:19:55  
Yep, because

Joe Bailey  1:19:56  
I I just I wasn't prepared for that reality. So thank you to all of you who like. Help us get prepared for these moments.

Chelsey Marino  1:20:03  
Well,

Lori Cohen  1:20:04  
thank you again, and thank you for for joining us and sharing that. It's a it's a it's a heavy thing to do sometimes, and especially the loss of your dog. And yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that. Yeah,

Joe Bailey  1:20:17  
thank you for having us. We appreciate it. Well, now we have Carol, who's sticking her head around the couch, saying, "Dad, it's time for dinner.

Lori Cohen  1:20:26  
Thanks for listening to Dogs Beyond the Lab. For more, including comments, feedback, and ways to get in touch with our hosts, go to beyondthelab.dog.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:20:36  
Produced and distributed by the Sound Off Media Company.